The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.
Rehash merchant
Originally Posted by petertard:
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
An alien that disguises itself using coma patients thoughts
A spaceship carried on the back of an ancient intergalactic creature
Spitfires that can fly in space
Yes these have all been done in Who before
Originally Posted by petertard:
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
I think the cracks in the universe have spread to this forum, I know i've read this thread before, and yet its just been posted.
Originally Posted by petertard:
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
“The Moffat regime just seems to rehash old stuff, the old stalwarts without anything new, without originality. Dare I say it, under RTD, things were better.”
As a time progresses, originality becomes increasingly difficult in any art form, not just Doctor Who. Although I suppose it has to be said the RTD era definitely had some originality, inasmuch as the Doctor falling in love with his companion, the companion's mother turning up every five minute and the kitchen sink being thrown in for good measure were original as far as Doctor Who was concerned. However it was originality that I for one could have done without.
Originally Posted by neel:
“I think the cracks in the universe have spread to this forum, I know i've read this thread before, and yet its just been posted.
”
“I think the cracks in the universe have spread to this forum, I know i've read this thread before, and yet its just been posted.
”
Hahahahahahahahaha!
RTD and SM were good friends and colleagues. Why is it the fans have to turn them into opposing Generals in an invented warzone?
I prefer Moffat's style to RTD (not that RTD is a bad writer, BTW) and there are those who prefer RTD to SM. But why does preference always end up turning to hate and criticism of the other side?
Not that I have a problem with critiquing a story - it's just the inscessent "this story is bad and this other writer was so much better and wouldn't have done it and why can't we go back to them doing everything because they were perfect" attitude that floods this place. It's depressing.
I prefer Moffat's style to RTD (not that RTD is a bad writer, BTW) and there are those who prefer RTD to SM. But why does preference always end up turning to hate and criticism of the other side?
Not that I have a problem with critiquing a story - it's just the inscessent "this story is bad and this other writer was so much better and wouldn't have done it and why can't we go back to them doing everything because they were perfect" attitude that floods this place. It's depressing.
Of course everything that happened in the previous series was original... Sontaran Strategem, for example... Seeds of Death, anyone? Different monster, same story... Blink and Human Nature both adapted from previously published material.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.
Originally Posted by Magpie2467:
“Of course everything that happened in the previous series was original... Sontaran Strategem, for example... Seeds of Death, anyone? Different monster, same story... Blink and Human Nature both adapted from previously published material.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.”
“Of course everything that happened in the previous series was original... Sontaran Strategem, for example... Seeds of Death, anyone? Different monster, same story... Blink and Human Nature both adapted from previously published material.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.”
They reckon there's only about six stories to be told in the entire history of the human race. Everything else is just variations on the themes.
No matter how hard you try, you will never find a story that hasn't been told before.
Originally Posted by Helbore:
“They reckon there's only about six stories to be told in the entire history of the human race. Everything else is just variations on the themes.
No matter how hard you try, you will never find a story that hasn't been told before.”
“They reckon there's only about six stories to be told in the entire history of the human race. Everything else is just variations on the themes.
No matter how hard you try, you will never find a story that hasn't been told before.”
Indeed.
According to Vladmir Prop there are only a certain number of finite variations:
Quote:
“After the initial situation is depicted, the tale takes the following sequence of 31 functions:[3]
1.ABSENTATION: A member of a family leaves the security of the home environment for some reason. This may be the hero or perhaps it’s some other member of the family that the hero will later need to rescue. This division of the cohesive family injects initial tension into the storyline. The hero may also be introduced here, often being shown as an ordinary person. This allows the reader of the story to associate with the hero as being 'like me'.
2.INTERDICTION: An interdiction is addressed to the hero ('don't go there', 'don't do this')The hero is warned against some action (given an 'interdiction'). A warning to the hero is also a warning to the reader about the dangers of life. Will the hero heed the warning? Would the reader? Perhaps the reader hopes the hero will ignore the warning, giving a vicarious adventure without the danger.
3.VIOLATION of INTERDICTION. The interdiction is violated (villain enters the tale). The hero ignores the interdiction (warning not to do something) and goes ahead. This generally proves to be a bad move and the villain enters the story, although not necessarily confronting the hero. Perhaps they are just a lurking presence or perhaps they attack the family whilst the hero is away. This acts to further increase tension. We may want to shout at the hero 'don't do it!' But the hero cannot hear us and does it anyway.
4.RECONNAISSANCE: The villain makes an attempt at reconnaissance (either villain tries to find the children/jewels etc; or intended victim questions the villain). The villain (often in disguise) makes an active attempt at seeking information, for example searching for something valuable or trying to actively capture someone. They may speak with a member of the family who innocently divulges information. They may also seek to meet the hero, perhaps knowing already the hero is special in some way. The introduction of the villain adds early tension to the story, particularly when they are found close to the previously-supposedly safe family or community environment. The eloquence or power of the villain may also add tension and we may want to shout at their targets to take care.
5.DELIVERY: The villain gains information about the victim. The villain's seeking now pays off and he or she now acquires some form of information, often about the hero or victim. Other information can be gained, for example about a map or treasure location or the intent of the 'good guys'. This is a down point in the story as the pendulum of luck swings towards the villain, creating fear and anticipation that the villain will overcome the hero and the story will end in tragedy.
6.TRICKERY: The villain attempts to deceive the victim to take possession of victim or victim's belongings (trickery; villain disguised, tries to win confidence of victim). The villain now presses further, often using the information gained in seeking to deceive the hero or victim in some way, perhaps appearing in disguise. This may include capture of the victim, getting the hero to give the villain something or persuading them that the villain is actually a friend and thereby gaining collaboration. Deception and the betrayal of trust is one of the worst social crimes, short of physical abuse. This action cements the position of the villain as clearly bad. It also raises the tension further as we fear for the hero or victim who is being deceived.
7.COMPLICITY: Victim taken in by deception, unwittingly helping the enemy. The trickery of the villain now works and the hero or victim naively acts in a way that helps the villain in some way. This may range from providing the villain with something (perhaps a map or magical weapon) to actively working against good people (perhaps the villain has persuaded the hero that these other people are actually bad). We now despair as the hero or victim acts in a way that may be seen as villainous. Perhaps we worry that the hero will fall permanently into the thrall of the villain. Perhaps they will become corrupted and evil also. We also fear for the reputation of the hero who may be perceived as evil and thus never find the true treasure or win the hand of the princess.
8.VILLAINY and LACK: Villain causes harm/injury to family member (by abduction, theft of magical agent, spoiling crops, plunders in other forms, causes a disappearance, expels someone, casts spell on someone, substitutes child etc, comits murder, imprisons/detains someone, threatens forced marriage, provides nightly torments); Alternatively, a member of family lacks something or desires something (magical potion etc). There are two parts to this stage, either or both of which may appear in the story. In the first stage, the villain causes some kind of harm, for example carrying away a victim or the desired magical object (which must be then be retrieved). In the second stage, a sense of lack is identified, for example in the hero's family or within a community, whereby something is identified as lost or something becomes desirable for some reason, for example a magical object that will save people in some way. 'Lack' is a deep psychoanalytic principle which we first experience when we realize our individual separation from the world. Lack leads to desire and deep longing and we look to heroes to satisfy this aching emptiness.
9.MEDIATION: Misfortune or lack is made known, (hero is dispatched, hears call for help etc/ alternative is that victimized hero is sent away, freed from imprisonment). The hero now discovers the act of villainy or lack, perhaps finding their family or community devastated or caught up in a state of anguish and woe. This creates a defining moment in the story as we wonder what will happen now. Perhaps we do not realize that the hero is the hero, as they may not yet have demonstrated heroic qualities. We feel the lack in sympathy for the act of villainy, but the hero may just have arrived on the scene or may be undistinguished from other grieving family members.
10.BEGINNING COUNTER-ACTION: Seeker agrees to, or decides upon counter-action. The hero now decides to act in a way that will resolve the lack, for example finding a needed magical item, rescuing those who are captured or otherwise defeating the villain. This is a defining moment for the hero as this is the decision that sets the course of future actions and by which a previously ordinary person takes on the mantle of heroism. Having made this decision, acting with integrity means that there is no turning back, for to do so would be to remove the mantle of heroism and be left only with shame.
11.DEPARTURE: Hero leaves home;
12.FIRST FUNCTION OF THE DONOR: Hero is tested, interrogated, attacked etc, preparing the way for his/her receiving magical agent or helper (donor);
13.HERO'S REACTION: Hero reacts to actions of future donor (withstands/fails the test, frees captive, reconciles disputants, performs service, uses adversary's powers against him);
14.RECEIPT OF A MAGICAL AGENT: Hero acquires use of a magical agent (directly transferred, located, purchased, prepared, spontaneously appears, eaten/drunk, help offered by other characters);
15.GUIDANCE: Hero is transferred, delivered or led to whereabouts of an object of the search;
16.STRUGGLE: Hero and villain join in direct combat;
17.BRANDING: Hero is branded (wounded/marked, receives ring or scarf);
18.VICTORY: Villain is defeated (killed in combat, defeated in contest, killed while asleep, banished);
19.LIQUIDATION: Initial misfortune or lack is resolved (object of search distributed, spell broken, slain person revived, captive freed);
20.RETURN: Hero returns;
21.PURSUIT: Hero is pursued (pursuer tries to kill, eat, undermine the hero);
22.RESCUE: Hero is rescued from pursuit (obstacles delay pursuer, hero hides or is hidden, hero transforms unrecognisably, hero saved from attempt on his/her life);
23.UNRECOGNIZED ARRIVAL: Hero unrecognized, arrives home or in another country;
24.UNFOUNDED CLAIMS: False hero presents unfounded claims;
25.DIFFICULT TASK: Difficult task proposed to the hero (trial by ordeal, riddles, test of strength/endurance, other tasks);
26.SOLUTION: Task is resolved;
27.RECOGNITION: Hero is recognized (by mark, brand, or thing given to him/her);
28.EXPOSURE: False hero or villain is exposed;
29.TRANSFIGURATION: Hero is given a new appearance (is made whole, handsome, new garments etc);
30.PUNISHMENT: Villain is punished;
31.WEDDING: Hero marries and ascends the throne (is rewarded/promoted).
Occasionally, some of these functions are inverted, as when the hero receives something while still at home, the function of a donor occurring early. More often, a function is negated twice, so that it must be repeated three times.[4]”
“After the initial situation is depicted, the tale takes the following sequence of 31 functions:[3]
1.ABSENTATION: A member of a family leaves the security of the home environment for some reason. This may be the hero or perhaps it’s some other member of the family that the hero will later need to rescue. This division of the cohesive family injects initial tension into the storyline. The hero may also be introduced here, often being shown as an ordinary person. This allows the reader of the story to associate with the hero as being 'like me'.
2.INTERDICTION: An interdiction is addressed to the hero ('don't go there', 'don't do this')The hero is warned against some action (given an 'interdiction'). A warning to the hero is also a warning to the reader about the dangers of life. Will the hero heed the warning? Would the reader? Perhaps the reader hopes the hero will ignore the warning, giving a vicarious adventure without the danger.
3.VIOLATION of INTERDICTION. The interdiction is violated (villain enters the tale). The hero ignores the interdiction (warning not to do something) and goes ahead. This generally proves to be a bad move and the villain enters the story, although not necessarily confronting the hero. Perhaps they are just a lurking presence or perhaps they attack the family whilst the hero is away. This acts to further increase tension. We may want to shout at the hero 'don't do it!' But the hero cannot hear us and does it anyway.
4.RECONNAISSANCE: The villain makes an attempt at reconnaissance (either villain tries to find the children/jewels etc; or intended victim questions the villain). The villain (often in disguise) makes an active attempt at seeking information, for example searching for something valuable or trying to actively capture someone. They may speak with a member of the family who innocently divulges information. They may also seek to meet the hero, perhaps knowing already the hero is special in some way. The introduction of the villain adds early tension to the story, particularly when they are found close to the previously-supposedly safe family or community environment. The eloquence or power of the villain may also add tension and we may want to shout at their targets to take care.
5.DELIVERY: The villain gains information about the victim. The villain's seeking now pays off and he or she now acquires some form of information, often about the hero or victim. Other information can be gained, for example about a map or treasure location or the intent of the 'good guys'. This is a down point in the story as the pendulum of luck swings towards the villain, creating fear and anticipation that the villain will overcome the hero and the story will end in tragedy.
6.TRICKERY: The villain attempts to deceive the victim to take possession of victim or victim's belongings (trickery; villain disguised, tries to win confidence of victim). The villain now presses further, often using the information gained in seeking to deceive the hero or victim in some way, perhaps appearing in disguise. This may include capture of the victim, getting the hero to give the villain something or persuading them that the villain is actually a friend and thereby gaining collaboration. Deception and the betrayal of trust is one of the worst social crimes, short of physical abuse. This action cements the position of the villain as clearly bad. It also raises the tension further as we fear for the hero or victim who is being deceived.
7.COMPLICITY: Victim taken in by deception, unwittingly helping the enemy. The trickery of the villain now works and the hero or victim naively acts in a way that helps the villain in some way. This may range from providing the villain with something (perhaps a map or magical weapon) to actively working against good people (perhaps the villain has persuaded the hero that these other people are actually bad). We now despair as the hero or victim acts in a way that may be seen as villainous. Perhaps we worry that the hero will fall permanently into the thrall of the villain. Perhaps they will become corrupted and evil also. We also fear for the reputation of the hero who may be perceived as evil and thus never find the true treasure or win the hand of the princess.
8.VILLAINY and LACK: Villain causes harm/injury to family member (by abduction, theft of magical agent, spoiling crops, plunders in other forms, causes a disappearance, expels someone, casts spell on someone, substitutes child etc, comits murder, imprisons/detains someone, threatens forced marriage, provides nightly torments); Alternatively, a member of family lacks something or desires something (magical potion etc). There are two parts to this stage, either or both of which may appear in the story. In the first stage, the villain causes some kind of harm, for example carrying away a victim or the desired magical object (which must be then be retrieved). In the second stage, a sense of lack is identified, for example in the hero's family or within a community, whereby something is identified as lost or something becomes desirable for some reason, for example a magical object that will save people in some way. 'Lack' is a deep psychoanalytic principle which we first experience when we realize our individual separation from the world. Lack leads to desire and deep longing and we look to heroes to satisfy this aching emptiness.
9.MEDIATION: Misfortune or lack is made known, (hero is dispatched, hears call for help etc/ alternative is that victimized hero is sent away, freed from imprisonment). The hero now discovers the act of villainy or lack, perhaps finding their family or community devastated or caught up in a state of anguish and woe. This creates a defining moment in the story as we wonder what will happen now. Perhaps we do not realize that the hero is the hero, as they may not yet have demonstrated heroic qualities. We feel the lack in sympathy for the act of villainy, but the hero may just have arrived on the scene or may be undistinguished from other grieving family members.
10.BEGINNING COUNTER-ACTION: Seeker agrees to, or decides upon counter-action. The hero now decides to act in a way that will resolve the lack, for example finding a needed magical item, rescuing those who are captured or otherwise defeating the villain. This is a defining moment for the hero as this is the decision that sets the course of future actions and by which a previously ordinary person takes on the mantle of heroism. Having made this decision, acting with integrity means that there is no turning back, for to do so would be to remove the mantle of heroism and be left only with shame.
11.DEPARTURE: Hero leaves home;
12.FIRST FUNCTION OF THE DONOR: Hero is tested, interrogated, attacked etc, preparing the way for his/her receiving magical agent or helper (donor);
13.HERO'S REACTION: Hero reacts to actions of future donor (withstands/fails the test, frees captive, reconciles disputants, performs service, uses adversary's powers against him);
14.RECEIPT OF A MAGICAL AGENT: Hero acquires use of a magical agent (directly transferred, located, purchased, prepared, spontaneously appears, eaten/drunk, help offered by other characters);
15.GUIDANCE: Hero is transferred, delivered or led to whereabouts of an object of the search;
16.STRUGGLE: Hero and villain join in direct combat;
17.BRANDING: Hero is branded (wounded/marked, receives ring or scarf);
18.VICTORY: Villain is defeated (killed in combat, defeated in contest, killed while asleep, banished);
19.LIQUIDATION: Initial misfortune or lack is resolved (object of search distributed, spell broken, slain person revived, captive freed);
20.RETURN: Hero returns;
21.PURSUIT: Hero is pursued (pursuer tries to kill, eat, undermine the hero);
22.RESCUE: Hero is rescued from pursuit (obstacles delay pursuer, hero hides or is hidden, hero transforms unrecognisably, hero saved from attempt on his/her life);
23.UNRECOGNIZED ARRIVAL: Hero unrecognized, arrives home or in another country;
24.UNFOUNDED CLAIMS: False hero presents unfounded claims;
25.DIFFICULT TASK: Difficult task proposed to the hero (trial by ordeal, riddles, test of strength/endurance, other tasks);
26.SOLUTION: Task is resolved;
27.RECOGNITION: Hero is recognized (by mark, brand, or thing given to him/her);
28.EXPOSURE: False hero or villain is exposed;
29.TRANSFIGURATION: Hero is given a new appearance (is made whole, handsome, new garments etc);
30.PUNISHMENT: Villain is punished;
31.WEDDING: Hero marries and ascends the throne (is rewarded/promoted).
Occasionally, some of these functions are inverted, as when the hero receives something while still at home, the function of a donor occurring early. More often, a function is negated twice, so that it must be repeated three times.[4]”
Originally Posted by Helbore:
“They reckon there's only about six stories to be told in the entire history of the human race. Everything else is just variations on the themes.
No matter how hard you try, you will never find a story that hasn't been told before.”
“They reckon there's only about six stories to be told in the entire history of the human race. Everything else is just variations on the themes.
No matter how hard you try, you will never find a story that hasn't been told before.”
I have a feeling Isaac Asimov said that... would you want to argue with him?
Originally Posted by Magpie2467:
“I have a feeling Isaac Asimov said that... would you want to argue with him?”
“I have a feeling Isaac Asimov said that... would you want to argue with him?
”
Absolutely yes I would. I know I would lose, but the honour of having an argument with Isaac Asimov would override everything.
Originally Posted by MrChicken:
“Absolutely yes I would. I know I would lose, but the honour of having an argument with Isaac Asimov would override everything.”
“Absolutely yes I would. I know I would lose, but the honour of having an argument with Isaac Asimov would override everything.”
Fair comment...
Originally Posted by poppycod:
“Indeed.
According to Vladmir Prop there are only a certain number of finite variations:”
“Indeed.
According to Vladmir Prop there are only a certain number of finite variations:”
Prop was the bain of my existence for a year of university, our professor was obsessed with semiotics and propian analysis.
Amazing theory though. Works wonderfully with fantasy stories and by extension sci fi.
Originally Posted by Magpie2467:
“Of course everything that happened in the previous series was original... Sontaran Strategem, for example... Seeds of Death, anyone? Different monster, same story... Blink and Human Nature both adapted from previously published material.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.”
“Of course everything that happened in the previous series was original... Sontaran Strategem, for example... Seeds of Death, anyone? Different monster, same story... Blink and Human Nature both adapted from previously published material.
In fact, what exactly is original about the standard "Aliens invade Earth, Doctor arrives and foils said aliens, Doctor save Earth" storyline that many of the last five years' worth of episodes have presented?
Virtually nothing! A good story isn't necessary a new story, it can easily be an old story told well.”
And it's how well the tale is told that's the important thing. So far I prefer the RTD era. Really didn't like last night's episode. It completely lacked any tension or drama IMO. The Beast Below was better as was the Eleventh Hour. Hopefully last night was just a blip, but at the moment I'm missing the style of the last series
Originally Posted by Reality Sucks:
“And it's how well the tale is told that's the important thing. So far I prefer the RTD era. Really didn't like last night's episode. It completely lacked any tension or drama IMO. The Beast Below was better as was the Eleventh Hour. Hopefully last night was just a blip, but at the moment I'm missing the style of the last series”
“And it's how well the tale is told that's the important thing. So far I prefer the RTD era. Really didn't like last night's episode. It completely lacked any tension or drama IMO. The Beast Below was better as was the Eleventh Hour. Hopefully last night was just a blip, but at the moment I'm missing the style of the last series”
RTD had some real, real, real stinkers during his tenure too you know.
Originally Posted by Reality Sucks:
“And it's how well the tale is told that's the important thing. So far I prefer the RTD era. Really didn't like last night's episode. It completely lacked any tension or drama IMO. The Beast Below was better as was the Eleventh Hour. Hopefully last night was just a blip, but at the moment I'm missing the style of the last series”
“And it's how well the tale is told that's the important thing. So far I prefer the RTD era. Really didn't like last night's episode. It completely lacked any tension or drama IMO. The Beast Below was better as was the Eleventh Hour. Hopefully last night was just a blip, but at the moment I'm missing the style of the last series”
I really liked the episodes SM wrote for Dr Who in previous series but although I quite liked the first one I'd have to agree that I'm not getting this series so far. I think for me it's lacking the emotional engagement of the RTD era. I know the dalek one wasn't written by SM but like the previous two it almost doesn't seem to need the doctor. It seems to be Amy that does the thinking and she's far too knowing already for a new companion - where's the wonder and excitement she should be feeling and she should be in awe of the doctor and he should be doing stuff to make her so. Like last week there's no sustained threat to even make you feel scared.
I'm hoping next week's is better.
The only rehashing I see going on is the rehashing of the same threads over and over....how many threads on the same bloody topic do we need?
Originally Posted by Muttley76:
“The only rehashing I see going on is the rehashing of the same threads over and over....how many threads on the same bloody topic do we need?”
“The only rehashing I see going on is the rehashing of the same threads over and over....how many threads on the same bloody topic do we need?”
hear hear
btw - strange times begets strange bedfellows...
Originally Posted by icedragon:
“I really liked the episodes SM wrote for Dr Who in previous series but although I quite liked the first one I'd have to agree that I'm not getting this series so far. I think for me it's lacking the emotional engagement of the RTD era. I know the dalek one wasn't written by SM but like the previous two it almost doesn't seem to need the doctor. It seems to be Amy that does the thinking and she's far too knowing already for a new companion - where's the wonder and excitement she should be feeling and she should be in awe of the doctor and he should be doing stuff to make her so. Like last week there's no sustained threat to even make you feel scared.
I'm hoping next week's is better.”
“I really liked the episodes SM wrote for Dr Who in previous series but although I quite liked the first one I'd have to agree that I'm not getting this series so far. I think for me it's lacking the emotional engagement of the RTD era. I know the dalek one wasn't written by SM but like the previous two it almost doesn't seem to need the doctor. It seems to be Amy that does the thinking and she's far too knowing already for a new companion - where's the wonder and excitement she should be feeling and she should be in awe of the doctor and he should be doing stuff to make her so. Like last week there's no sustained threat to even make you feel scared.
I'm hoping next week's is better.”
Me too. I want to like it but something isn't working for me.
