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black bar on ITV1HD six o'clock news


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Old 27-04-2010, 13:53
tonymcallister
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Last night on the ITV1HD six o'clock news there was a black bar at the bottom of the screen telling me that local news was available on ITV1. I am in the south east region so I can receive the south east news in HD - so the notice is irrelevant to me.

I appreciate that there perhaps isn't sufficient capacity for all the local news programmes to be in HD, but why does this bar need to be permanently displayed? It takes up about a quarter of the picture area, making the programme effectively unwatchable!

Tony
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Old 27-04-2010, 14:02
dids858
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For the rest of the country it is not. As its not a regional channel.
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Old 27-04-2010, 14:36
tonymcallister
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I appreciate that, but why a permanent display taking up so much of the screen?
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Old 27-04-2010, 16:07
willthetech
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ITV HD broadcasts London news not the South East news. But it is annoying just the same and is present on the national news also.
Why can't they do the red button in reverse to the way it was when HD was a red button selection.
In the meantime surely a more modest transparent caption is possible if absolutely necessary.
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Old 27-04-2010, 16:58
Bob_Cat
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As I understand if you watch ITV1-HD then you aren't technically watching ITV1, thus you aren't contributing to the ITV1 viewing figures. ITV has certain license obligations about local programming and advertising that means if you aren't seeing local advertising you don't count as a viewer. If too many people stop watching local ITV1 then they might have trouble with their license. And it doesn't matter if you see the local news on ITV1HD it doesn't count for the licensing authorities.

As for two different versions, they would have to encode two different versions of ITV1 with the additional complexity of automating the display of the overlay in the two different areas. Two distribution circuits, two HD encoders, two HD circuits from play-out, dual playouts or modified twin output playout. All this would add to their overhead and make the system less financially viable; remembering that playout, circuits and encoding are services usually provided by sub-contractors.

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Old 27-04-2010, 17:03
tonymcallister
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OK so I'd settle for the more modest transparent notice as willthetech suggests. How can we submit a request to this effect?

Tony
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Old 28-04-2010, 09:18
Night Watchman
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ITV1 HD did actually switch to using a transparent sign for this notice for a couple of days after they started - don't know why they have reverted to the solid black bar. They obviously have problems with displaying text since they still haven't got subtitles either.
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Old 28-04-2010, 13:08
d'@ve
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ITV1 HD did actually switch to using a transparent sign for this notice for a couple of days after they started - don't know why they have reverted to the solid black bar. They obviously have problems with displaying text since they still haven't got subtitles either.
ITV1 HD seem to have problems with all sorts of things, things they should have sorted out before launch (they've been testing for long enough!).

The permanent 16 - 22 pixel wide black bar on the right of the screen and 2-4 px. at the bottom for example (with overscan switched off).

As for the subject of this thread, it's just an even worse example of thoughtless or incompetent "strap line" insertion, like they have on News channels, ones that take up far too much of the screen and obscure huge chunks of the picture.

All that's needed is one transparent or partially transparent line in the bottom 10% of the screen, which would be acceptable to most people. As it is, important parts of the picture are often obscured and this is unacceptable. It seems to me that they are trying to force everyone off the HD channel during regional programmes - in which case they would do better to black out the entire screen with their message. It's probably driven by local ITV companies and local advertisers, scared of losing audience share.
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Old 28-04-2010, 13:16
Jepson
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All that's needed is one transparent or partially transparent line in the bottom 10% of the screen, which would be acceptable to most people. As it is, important parts of the picture are often obscured and this is unacceptable. It seems to me that they are trying to force everyone off the HD channel during regional programmes - in which case they would do better to black out the entire screen with their message. It's probably driven by local ITV companies and local advertisers, scared of losing audience share.
I wonder if they are making the image very obviously 'spoiled' so that the majority of viewers who are not getting their region's local news in HD do not feel inclined to complain.

I can imagine that if the HD local news was London and the picture perfectly viewable there would be objections that London was being favoured over everyone else.
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Old 28-04-2010, 13:39
grahamlthompson
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ITV1 HD seem to have problems with all sorts of things, things they should have sorted out before launch (they've been testing for long enough!).

The permanent 16 - 22 pixel wide black bar on the right of the screen and 2-4 px. at the bottom for example (with overscan switched off).

As for the subject of this thread, it's just an even worse example of thoughtless or incompetent "strap line" insertion, like they have on News channels, ones that take up far too much of the screen and obscure huge chunks of the picture.

All that's needed is one transparent or partially transparent line in the bottom 10% of the screen, which would be acceptable to most people. As it is, important parts of the picture are often obscured and this is unacceptable. It seems to me that they are trying to force everyone off the HD channel during regional programmes - in which case they would do better to black out the entire screen with their message. It's probably driven by local ITV companies and local advertisers, scared of losing audience share.
I watch and record ITV 1 HD using a freesat pvr (foxsat-hdr) connected to a Sony TV set to full pixel 1: mapping) and there is no such problem at all. The BBC-HD test card displays to the last pixel as well with no problem.

Sounds like a scaler problem with your display or whatever you use to scale the transmission to me.
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Old 28-04-2010, 15:45
d'@ve
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I watch and record ITV 1 HD using a freesat pvr (foxsat-hdr) connected to a Sony TV set to full pixel 1: mapping) and there is no such problem at all. The BBC-HD test card displays to the last pixel as well with no problem.

Sounds like a scaler problem with your display or whatever you use to scale the transmission to me.
Well if it is what you siuggest, a lot of receivers and/or display scalers displays are affected - and only on ITV1 HD.

There is a thread (sarcastically titled) about it in the Sky HD board http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1249676

The black bars display on my Panny plasma with both Freesat and Sky HDMI sources but in case it is my panny, I have just had a look at it on DVBViewer on my PC, which lets me take screenshots. There is a 16 pixel wide black bar on the right, and a 4 pixel black bar at the bottom (based on 1440 x 1080). However... this does not show when viewing the channel in the DVBviewer window, which seems to auto-detect the boundaries of the picture and crop the bars out. Perhaps this is what your set is doing?

Anyway, it's there alright, albeit hidden, it appears, by some displays.
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Old 28-04-2010, 17:23
grahamlthompson
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Well if it is what you siuggest, a lot of receivers and/or display scalers displays are affected - and only on ITV1 HD.

There is a thread (sarcastically titled) about it in the Sky HD board http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1249676

The black bars display on my Panny plasma with both Freesat and Sky HDMI sources but in case it is my panny, I have just had a look at it on DVBViewer on my PC, which lets me take screenshots. There is a 16 pixel wide black bar on the right, and a 4 pixel black bar at the bottom (based on 1440 x 1080). However... this does not show when viewing the channel in the DVBviewer window, which seems to auto-detect the boundaries of the picture and crop the bars out. Perhaps this is what your set is doing?

Anyway, it's there alright, albeit hidden, it appears, by some displays.
Just captured a frame using vlcplayer from a .ts recording from freesat and you are right there is a black bar at the right but none at the bottom on the 1920 x 1080 image.

Clearly different scalers do different things to the 1440 x 1080 image (If it's truly 1440). The same technique on the HD testcard is pixel perfect, i tried replacing the edge pixels with a single red pixel and it's visible on my TV when the image is replayed either from the TV usb or the hdr usb port.

I would have thought that the original 1440 x 1080 must have the black pixels just like the 1080 vertical is actually 1088 with the last 8 carrying no video (multiple of 16)
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:15
White-Knight
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As I understand if you watch ITV1-HD then you aren't technically watching ITV1, thus you aren't contributing to the ITV1 viewing figures. ITV has certain license obligations about local programming and advertising that means if you aren't seeing local advertising you don't count as a viewer. If too many people stop watching local ITV1 then they might have trouble with their license. And it doesn't matter if you see the local news on ITV1HD it doesn't count for the licensing authorities.

As for two different versions, they would have to encode two different versions of ITV1 with the additional complexity of automating the display of the overlay in the two different areas. Two distribution circuits, two HD encoders, two HD circuits from play-out, dual playouts or modified twin output playout. All this would add to their overhead and make the system less financially viable; remembering that playout, circuits and encoding are services usually provided by sub-contractors.

Bob
In that case Bob, the licensing tv authorities need to review and vary the terms and conditions to take into account the advent of ITV HD.

Its absolutely ridiculous thta ITV should be penalised for having viewers watch ITV HD instead of ITV SD. Seems to me the conditions needs amending so the figures count viewers ovre both channels.
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Old 02-05-2010, 19:54
michael777
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I think they should make ITV1 HD a region-free channel, if that's a good way to describe it.

So when there is local news, I think just an on screen message telling everyone to refer to 103 or channel 3 would be easiest. My mum was watching it and wasn't sure why she was getting the London news instead of the Wales news, so it'd stop any confusion.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:48
Mark C
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Well if it is what you siuggest, a lot of receivers and/or display scalers displays are affected - and only on ITV1 HD.

There is a thread (sarcastically titled) about it in the Sky HD board http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1249676

The black bars display on my Panny plasma with both Freesat and Sky HDMI sources but in case it is my panny, I have just had a look at it on DVBViewer on my PC, which lets me take screenshots. There is a 16 pixel wide black bar on the right, and a 4 pixel black bar at the bottom (based on 1440 x 1080). However... this does not show when viewing the channel in the DVBviewer window, which seems to auto-detect the boundaries of the picture and crop the bars out. Perhaps this is what your set is doing?

Anyway, it's there alright, albeit hidden, it appears, by some displays.
I get the 16 pixel bar on my set up, (Humax HDR, Sony KDL-40W5500)
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Old 17-05-2010, 18:21
tonymcallister
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At present I have abandoned ITV News alogether and have gone to BBC. Is this really what ITV want to happen?

Who do we complain to to get this removed?

Tony
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Old 19-05-2010, 14:27
michael777
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At present I have abandoned ITV News alogether and have gone to BBC. Is this really what ITV want to happen?

Who do we complain to to get this removed?

Tony
Why don't you just turn over to ITV1 on channel 103 if you want it without the black bar?..
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Old 22-05-2010, 11:57
tonymcallister
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Because I want to watch it in HD!
I thought that was the point of channel 119.
Tony
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Old 22-05-2010, 17:45
tonymcallister
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ITV have responded thus:

"The banner is present to inform the majority of viewers that their local programme is available on channel 3. Its size has been designed to cover the existing captions on the programme. We will not be removing the banner until additional regions are available in HD and would advise that London Tonight is available to you in standard definition.

Your feedback is welcome and your comments have been passed to the technical team responsible for the channel."

Exactly why they are taking this stance is not clear.

So there it is - like it or lump it.

Tony
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Old 22-05-2010, 17:47
derek500
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Because I want to watch it in HD!
I thought that was the point of channel 119.
Tony
But the programme in question is not in HD!!
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Old 22-05-2010, 18:50
terrykl
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ITV have responded thus:

"The banner is present to inform the majority of viewers that their local programme is available on channel 3. Its size has been designed to cover the existing captions on the programme. We will not be removing the banner until additional regions are available in HD and would advise that London Tonight is available to you in standard definition.

Your feedback is welcome and your comments have been passed to the technical team responsible for the channel."

Exactly why they are taking this stance is not clear.

So there it is - like it or lump it.

Tony
They are not taking a stance,if you read the letter properly you will see that they are explaining things clearly to you the fact that the response isn't the one you wanted does not translate into like it or lump it !!
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Old 23-05-2010, 18:05
tonymcallister
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But the programme in question is not in HD!!
If that is the case then why is channel 119 called ITV1HD?

Tony
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