Hi, we bought a puppy last month from a breeder, we chose him in February and went to see him again before we bought him, so we had a good rapport with the breeder (or so we thought), we paid £950 for the puppy and after we got him home, realised that he had an undershot jaw. Everyone kept telling us to go back to the breeder and mention this as it would ruin any chances of showing or breeding him (we did have plans to show him), but we never pursued anything, as he's a gorgeous little thing in his own merit and it makes him quirky! However, we noticed over the last week that he's unsteady on his back feet and appears to handstand a lot of the time, then on Saturday he seemed to avoid putting weight on his back right leg. He has always been a little bit bowlegged, but we thought this was the breed and due to some pups being gangly. We took him to the vets on Mon, he went back yesterday to be x-rayed and it turns out he has patellar luxation (his knee caps have become dislodged and have moved to the side of his leg on both back legs), he has been ref. to an ortho clinic and will need an op on both legs. We have contacted the breeder and I am astonished at how they have responded, they have said that they will exchange the dog (which we don't want as we chose him and are attached), she basically said she would swap him for a bitch which appears to have been returned from his litter and she would 'deal with him' - meaning taking him to the vets to be PTS. Where do we stand re: price and KC??

Many thanks.

Sorry you seem to be having a rough ride

How old is the pup? it seems very young to be able to make a confident diagnosis of luxating patella.


I am not quite understanding what you are asking.

Normally, breeders give you a recommendation of within 'x' days to get the dog checked over by your own vet, and if there is any problem, they will give you your money back / exchange the pup.

Other than this - unless it is a breed in which luxating patella is well documented, either of the parents suffer from it, or there is a DNA test to eliminate it - it really is, I'm afraid, just one of those things

The undershot jaw may well correct itself .

The vets won't operate until the dog is older because the bones are still forming.

If the dog has surgery, you will not get permission to show it.

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I understand that a pet owner may be astonished at the breeders response, but in fairness, she has stood by her offer to take the pup back if it is unwell, and has offered you an alternative dog - you have to bear in mind if you indicated that you wanted to show, and you have rejected an alternative, you have no recourse on this either.

A breeder that didn't care would have acted in exactly that way - the breeder from what I can see has done nothing wrong.

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if the dog is KC registered, the dog is KC registered, nothing changes - but you won't be able to show the dog at any level above Companion show level once it has had surgery for LP

OP - what were you hoping the breeder would do? Were you hoping she would offer to pay vets fees for surgery etc?

That is exactly what the breeder has to do. Buying a puppy is covered under the Sale of Goods Act. Bad breeders try to get out of the vet fee costs by offering to take the pup back, as they know the owners won't do this as they love their pup.

You need to take the breeder to court so that she pays for the vet fees. Contact a solicitor or look on your house contents insurance policy to see if you have legal cover, so that you can sue the breeder.

Our staffie had luxated patella on one leg, as a pup of a few months old and he had an operation on it ASAP. When he finished growing I think. He went on to live a normal life, and the leg didn't seem to bother him at all. He appeared normal had no limp - and neither did either of his parents - at the time we bought him. He was never sold as show quality anyway and TBH in an 8 week old pup, that's not easy even for an experienced breeder, to tell which will go on to have the potential to be show dogs. However many Champions are on the pedigree! It's pot luck at the time you buy the dog in other words. You can't go back later, having bought it at 8 weeks old, and complain if it's not show quality. That's a subjective judgement.

LP is an inherent problem in some breeds and I doubt the breeder would have any responsibility to do anything about it. (What breed is he?)

Some breeders cover their arses by giving you a leaflet about possible genetic probs that may only show up later. But I think that's just guidelines for good practice - not the law.

Our dog's op cost nearly £2000 but luckily he was insured - again, I wouldn't buy an uninsured pup. Most come with insurance the breeders take out that you can just carry on. If he was uninsured, that is your responsibility so I don;t see how you can sue the breeder. If the dog wasn't limping at the point you bought him, the breeder couldn't have known and it's most likely the condition developed after you bought him (I know it did with our pup).

KC reg is something I'd have made sure the breeder had done for me, before I bought the dog. If you are buying to show you would only buy a KC reg dog. But TBH it's just a piece of paper - if you're not showing you don't need it. And if the dog does have luxating patella, you could never breed from it anyway - so no point to showing.

Luxating pattela can be genetic and inherited so once a dog has been diagnosed with it, it should never be bred from.

As for the undershot jaw, TBH again, that is not always evident in a very young puppy and that is a chance you take, buying a young dog as opposed to a fully grown one. My bull terrier was Crufts qualified when we bought her (having won more than 3 major shows by the age of 2) and she has a slightly undershot jaw but still managed to win shows, she was that good. So whoever told you that about the jaw didn;t know what they were on about.

If you intended to show the dog you should have only bought a KC reg'd one, surely? As for the vet fees they are your responsibility, if the dog wasn't already obviously limping at the time you bought it.

It's a lot of money to part with for a dog that was not already KC registered and didn't have insurance? (Or did it? It's not clear from your post). Swapping with a bitch from the same litter would not be great anyway - as she may go on to have the same problem.

I doubt you'd have any redress unless the dog was limping the day you got it (and I was told it is one of the most excruiciating problems a dog can have so they'd definitely be limping).

I think with breeds that are prone to hip dysplasia, you have no redress in law if you didn't get a current x ray at the time you bought the dog. Another dog I have had, went on to develop luxating eye lenses 2 years after we bought her but she had normal eye test results when we bought her, so it was not the breeders' fault. We were told that things change so rapidly with these kind of problems with pedigree dogs, that you are only covered for the exact day and period up to when the normal X Ray/eye test result was taken. Chances are the day you bought him, he had no problem. Helps to do your homework about the breed, knwo the potential genetic problems, and specifically ask the breeder about it when you meet with them. I wish you'd come on here in Feb I could have helped you!

As Hogzilla points out, most pedigrees come with a month's free pet insurance (all of mine have) which the owner is invited to continue. Even if not, I would have expected someone buying a pedigree puppy costing £950 to have taken out pet insurance immediately.

So OP, do you have pet insurance which will cover any treatment? You mentioned 'price', so were you hoping for a partial refund?

This is complete and utter rubbish. If the neither of the parents suffered from Luxating Patella - then it really is one of those things.


For your information - GOOD RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS draw it into their contract that the puppy be checked by the puppy buyers vet within so many days, and if any issues are found they will take the pup back and offer a refund or possibly an alternative pup.

A BAD BREEDER WILL PUT THE PHONE DOWN and really won't want to know - I suggest you get your facts right

Buying puppies is ONLY covered under the Sale of Goods Act is they are sold as part of a business. The large majority of breeders are hobby breeders - to breed as part of a business, you would have to literally produce hundreds of litters a year - this falls into the domain of puppy farmers and some commercial breeders, but they are the minority rather than the majority.

Responsible breeders will do the necessary health tests to ensure the pups have the best start in life, what most joint related tests don't do is provide a guarantee.

DNA testing is the closest you will come to getting a guarantee that dogs won't be affected by a condition, although there are some in the pipeline, at present, the large majority of joint related conditions are not covered by DNA testing.

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Unfortunately, the Kennel Club rules have now changed on free insurance, and it is only given to Accredited Breeders and lasts for a period of four weeks.

Pet Plan do offer a scheme which will cover pups for a short period - and breeders can sign up to this themselves -

Once again, both situations have changed and the breeder is now responsible for activating the insurance.

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To the OP - was the puppy you bought KC registered? it is a huge amount of money to pay if it wasn't.

Only the original breeder can KC register pups (assuming both parents are KC registered themselves with no breeding restrictions) - during the first twelve months this costs £12 - after this it is £60


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Also to the OP - as the breeder has offered to take the pup back (AS responsible breeders do) - they have, in law, mitigated their losses, and therefore, any legal case will cost you a lot of money with the likely outcome being that you bear the costs and get no recompense

Some people have some very weird ideas about what is right and wrong in terms of puppies. There are around 40K puppies in my own breed registered each year - the vets would be rubbing their hands in glee - while the owners subject their pups to the risks of a GA (which include death) - when in most instances, problems wouldn't become apparent until around 5/6 months anyway)

For breeds prone to Hip Dysplasia - it is advisable to buy only from hipscored parents with hipscores below or around the breed average.

What this does is it reduces the risk of your puppy developing any problems - a bit like ensuring that if you jump out of a plane, you have a back up parachute.

What it doesn't so is guarantee that there won't be a problem.

Breeders of breeds prone to Hip Dysplacia should give puppy owners considerable advice about what they should and shouldn't do during the first 12 months of their life - what the breeder cannot do sadly is enforce it.

How puppies of any breed with joint related conditions are raised in the first 12 months can have a significant impact on the puppy developing problems - these environmental factors include things such as over-exercising, over-feeding, high protein foods causing fast growth, using stairs, too much rough and tumble with other dogs - need I go on?

I've had a dog with LP in a breed not prone to it and no history of it in her lineage (she wasn't bred from) it was just one of those things.

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Puppy buyers for their part should activate (if not done so by the breeder) the free insurance provided with the pup - and it is important to obtain quality insurance as soon as the dog has had it's first vaccinations (most high street policies won't cover dogs under 8 weeks / not been vaccinated)

Even if covered by the sales of goods act (which I don't think puppy sales are) the only remedies are refund, replacement or repair.

In practice the refund or replacement on return of the dog would satisfy and a replacement has been offered. The OP doesn't seem to want to return the dog thus nullifying any rights they may have under the SoGA or contractual law.

The only exception I can think of would be deliberate misrepresentation - if the breed is prone to LP and the OP asked specifically if the pup/parents was tested for LP and the breeder lied and could be proven to have lied. In which case the contract would be null and void and a judge could compel the breeder to cover vet bills.

At £950 a pup, I can't think of a breed that averages that price and is genetically prone to LP. Would be very interested to know the breed. English Bull Dogs and Maltese Terriers still command that price. Can think of a couple of other breeds. But none overly prone to LP.

As above, puppies do fall under the SoGA if they are sold as part of a business - which in reality, covers very few breeders.

I am still surprised however, that such a young pup could get a definite diagnosis of LP - in my own experience of it, it manifested itself gradually rather than just 'being there' - may be different in breeds prone to it.

My staffie's LP had a very abrupt onset - literally one second he wasn't limping, the next he was in distress and limping. I forget how old he was - but think it was around 6 months maybe, as we didn't wait too long after that for his op.

As you say in another post, £950 is a lot to pay for an uninsured, non KC reg pup. And if it is a breed prone to LP or other genetic problems, the OP should have been asking questions prior to parting with the money. In the case of my other dog with the luxating eye lenses, we were given her recent eye test results and a leaflet on recognising luxating lens and what to do about it, at the time we bought her. But I understood that was just good practice and some breeders don;t do it. There is no requirement in law for them to do it. I bought the dog knowing she had good eyes on the day I bought her - and neither of her parents had had the problem. But also that if it occured after we took her home, it would be our problem to deal with.

If government legislates anywhere re. dogs I think it should compel people to take our insurance when they buy a dog - or better still, only allow those already insured to be sold.

As you say it's always a risk - we saw BOTH parents of the staffie before we bought him and neither had any problems that were apparent. We had bad luck twice - but both dogs went on to have excellent operations.

If you're parting with the best part of a thousand quid for a dog, though the onus is on you to do the research and to take on board the fact if the breed has known problems you will be responsible for them if they develop once you have the dog at home.

Re. the undershot jaw - a pup of 8 weeks has a lot of growth ahead of them and even experienced breeders can't predict how any one pup will conform to breed standard once it's adult. As I say my doggy with the undershot jaw was Crufts qualified, won some national shows - and her son won Westminster the US version of Crufts. I wouldn't listen to the uninformed gossip of the friends who told you it is a huge problem.

I hope OP is insured and no need to bother about KC reg now - although at that price, I'd have expected it!

Must say when this dog finally goes I will be getting a rescue as there are too many dogs needing homes. Hopefully I'll by-pass the genetic problems with some pedigrees, too!

Until recently, all KC registered pups bought from Breeders were provided with 6 weeks free insurance - but the owner needed to activate it themselves - in addition, a lot of vets offer 6 weeks free insurance through Pet Plan.

I understand this has changed in the last month, and now only Accredited Breeders are able to give their puppies free insurance which lasts for 4 weeks.

There would be complexities with selling dogs with insurance under present rules - other than these free insurances that come from the breeder - most insurance companies won't cover pups until they have had their vaccinations - in addition, most policies exclude a lot of conditions in the first 14 days.

I always advise my puppy buyers to invest in quality insurance as soon as possible, ideally allowing 14 days overlap between their free insurance expiring and their new one starting


I am fully in support of people going down the rescue route, and quite often advise puppy enquirers to do so, particularly if I don't feel a puppy would suit their lifestyle.

However, if you are going it for the reasons you state (avoiding the issues associated with pedigree dogs) - be aware that

a) Many dogs ending up in rescue are pedigree dogs from Back Yard Breeders or puppy farmers - so invariably, the risks of health problems can actually be higher. Most responsible breeders would have horrors if they thought their pups were ending up in rescue, and will often take them back, or assist with rehoming to ensure they don't.

b) Contrary to popular belief - cross breeds are not immune to hereditary diseases - if the two breeds share common genetic problems, e.g. hip dysplasia, OCD, PRA, Hereditary cataracts - 1st generation cross breeds will not be protected.

2nd generation cross breeds can often be in a worse position because, a first generation cross may have two very different sets of genetic problems and the genes can't match - the minute you introduce a 2nd generation, you now have a dog which has the risk of genetic conditions associated with BOTH breeds - so for example, a Labrador x Poodle will already have a risk of PRA, Hip and Elbow dysplacia - a 2nd generation will not only have these risks, but add CNM, Hereditary cataracts, a whole host of eye problems that affect Poodles and Von Willebrand’s Disease.

Hybrid vigour is a good theoretical argument for cross breeds that doesn't stand up when you start digging a bit deeper.
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No, to avoid genetic problems is not a primary motive - just as a dog-lover, I think now my kids are older, it will be OK to rescue. And I say that despite having 2 pedigree dogs with genetic problems! I might go to a breed rescue, as have had bull terriers or staffs all my life and am a third generation bullie owner. I'll look and see if I can find a bullie or bullie cross at a rescue before I go to breed rescue though.

Have supported NSBTR for years now. But I don't want a staffie again as there are just too many back street breeders around for you to guarantee any staffie's temprement anymore.

I agree - and it frustrates me sometimes, even thought I am an occasiona breeder, I sometimes advise people that a rescue may be a better option for them than a puppy (or sometimes no dog at all) and they then go to breeders asking less questions and end up with pups they struggle to cope with

The jaw thing should have been mentioned when he was sold. My dog has a severely overshot jaw and was sold as a pet only and at a reduced price.

Some dog breeds are knopwn to have genetic problems and LP is one of them What breed is he? This is very common in Chihuahuas

The issue with genetic problems is, unless there is a method of testing for it - it's very difficult to know whether the dogs are predisposed to it - it's like hipscoring in Labs - the risks of having problems from two low hipscoring parents are lower than from two high scoring or unscored parents - but it doesn't offer you a guarantee there won't be a problem - very difficult.

People really should do their research before buying any breed - and should be able to talk in a knowledgeable way with breeders - not to necessarily understand the extent of the problem - but at least to be able to recognise what issues there are in their chosen breed - and what, if any preventative measures of tests can be done to try and ensure the pups have the healthest start in life.

DNA tests are being worked on for a lot of conditions - but even then - the fact that the dog carries the 'affected' gene for a condition, doesn't mean the dog will necessarily develop it - it's like cancer genes in humans, - if you have certain 'cancer' genes, it means you have a higher chance of getting that cancer - but it doesn't mean you will.

Likewise, if you don't carry that particular cancer gene - it doesn't mean you won't get it

I did wonder if it was a Chi but I wouldn't say LP was 'very' common in the breed though it certainly occurs and can be severe (Level 3 IIRC is the worst - no groove for the knee cap). And there are so many about the price has fallen a bit even though the popularity, the small litter sizes and frequent need for a C-Section still keeps the price higher than a lot of breeds. However, jaw problems are quite common.

That said, I don't think LP in the Chi is as common and well documented as HP in Labs for instance or heart problems in Cavs - or even LP in JRTs and Toy Poodles (or PRA in Toy Poodles, Cherry eye in Pugs & Pekes, mental problems in Min Pins)

When we were looking at Chihuahuas it didn't take much research to find the lines and breeders to avoid for various reasons (both health and temperament) and which breeders produced healthy, sturdy, little, well adjusted mousers.

Luxating Patella is caused by bad breeding. Rarely,it can be caused by a blunt trauma.

You don't get out of the sale of good act because you are a "hobby breeder". And you don't get out paying the vet bills to sort these problems by saying you will only do something about it if the problem is found in so many days! Nice try though.

No good breeder would ever put a time limit on the claiming period anyway, that is just done by the backstreet breeders to try to escape their responsibilities.

ejr, you may be able to use your house contents insurance policy legal cover, to sue the breeder for all losses.

Read the LAW - it clearly says is a dog is sold THROUGH THE COURSE OF A BUSINESS - hobby breeding is NOT defined as a business - not even by the taxman.

Luxating Patella is NOT caused by bad breeding, some vets still say it is not genetic.

I've had a dog with LP, no blunt trauma, the first case in over 20 generations- it was literally 'just one of those things' - and no - she wasn't bred from - because of the terrible strain it would have put her under.

How - when a condition cannot be tested for, ir's not in either parents breeding lines - CAN IT BE BAD BREEDING? Please explain because I am fascinated.


Good breeders advise new puppy owners to take out insurance - not necessarily because of genetic illness, but to cover any type of eventuality.

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To produce a litter responsibly costs around £2,000 before you even get sight of a pup - when you cover off all the health testing, stud fees, vet fees, not to mention having to either buy or breed the bitch in the first place - campaign it in the showring or working - and all the associated costs of raising the bitch - I lost an absolute fortune on my last litter - we give new puppy owners free insurance to ensure that their pups are covered for the first 6 weeks (as was) now 4 weeks.

Vets bills run into thousands - if a breeder had to be responsible for the vets bills of any pup that fell ill after leaving and didn't take the breeders advise of obtaining insurance- there would be no more dogs.

Some people might say good to this - but it wouldn't stop the bad breeders who churn out dogs at the rate of knots and turn their back at the first sign of a problem - and it is often THESE dogs that end up littering the rescues, not those from responsible breeders who take a lifelong interest in their dogs, and support their owners whatever.

I don't know why anyone is advising this owner (who interestingly hasn't put their head above the parapet since the original post) to sue - the breeder offered to take the pup back - any legal case would take this into full consideration leaving the OP with MORE costs rather than any financial gain.

Sue is right. OP needed to do their homework - even dogs for sale in the small ads mention having puppy insurance and/or KC reg so even to the uninitiated, five minutes' searching would help them draw that conclusion that maybe what they need to do is find a breeder who is selling pups with those things already in place..?

OP hasn't returned so we don't even understand what they're asking re. KC reg or insurance and are just trying to give OP a realistic picture based on experience (I have worked in breeding kennels and have known a few breeders as well as bought pedigree dogs over the years).

They have no redress but it should not be a problem IF they are insured. Would you part with nearly £1000 for an uninsured pup? I know I wouldn't.

Also why is KC reg an issue if the dog has LP? They shouldn;t be breeding from it, and clearly don;t have the experience on the show circuit etc you'd need to develop a show dog into a stud - although sometimes people buy a pedigree dog irresponsibly thinking they can later making a killing with it out at stud - the truth is people will only pay money for a champion. Which means a lot of shows. And a dog good enough to win.

The fact OP had had such half assed 'advice' re the undershot jaw made me think they had not done their homework before buying the dog - looking nito the breed's potential problems, and what things like the wrong sort of back, or undershot jaw, or whatever deviates from Breed Standard, would look like. And as I said before, an 8 week old puppy is impossible to judge for most of us. We've had bull terriers since the 1920s in our family and I wouldn;t venture to look at a litter of 8 week old bullies and pick out a future show winner. I'd be clueless. I would know an udnershot jaw when I saw it, or a serious fault but again - £1000 is a lot to spend on something you haven't thoroughly researched and all this info is freely available from breed clubs, online and in reference books.

I'd be interested to see what the otucome was - whether the dog was insured, and what OP has done. Also what's the thing re. KC reg?

I agree. I do have sympathy with the OP, but the breeder offered to take the puppy back and replace it, which would leave the OP with no losses to sue for. The fact that they have become fond of the puppy and prefer to keep is understandable, but it is not the breeder's problem if the OP didn't continue with the insurance - that's assuming they didn't, but we don't know because after requesting urgent advice the OP has not been back to answer. If they do have insurance then they should be covered, so only minimal losses.

What breed is it? Breeders normally sell with a contract, and if an illness/defect is found the breeder will normally offer to take the pup back for a refund or exchange.

About the KC, if you paid £950, and didn't get given any KC documents to transfer ownership then you were a little screwed over, however I'm guessing you did get documents?

Which is exactly what the breeder did - much to the OP's horror !!! - as they haven't been back, we can only surmise the circumstances of the purchase and what happened.

The 'desperately required' in the title fooled me into thinking someone needed urgent help. But we couldn't help properly not understanding the actual question and OP demanding urgent help then not returning to respond here, clarifying what needed to be clrified so we could help.

I hope others will see this thread and draw the inference if they want to buy a pedigree animal, they will seek the 'urgent' help before they part with the money.

I'm still shocked that anyone would pay £950 for a puppy! I'd love to know what breed it is, but the OP seems to have vanished from the forum.