Sorry to burst your bubble, but 'good ratings' is precisely what any returning drama series needs to survive.

If you want to believe that being populist or telling a certain kind of story constitutes damage, go ahead. But I can only assume you must be posting from a parallel universe where ratings don't matter and the opinions of a tiny minority carry weight.

And SM clearly understands exactly what populism is - otherwise why would he have brought back the Daleks (redesigned, no less) and the Weeping Angels?

Then again, as others have noted, it's one rule for RTD and another for SM.

If you don't like aspects of RTD's writing, fine. But your opinion doesn't consitute evidence to back up a case that he has done 'damage' to DW - especially when the facts indicate the exact opposite.

What I find magical about DW's "massive alien invasions" is the fact that the general public know nothing of them afterwards! It has always been a opint of interest in DW that humans are really brilliant at deceiving each other, so not many people are clued up as tyo how big the alien problem is!

While the RTD era gave us some good invasion stories, it lost that magic/ mystery by clueing people up. Good on the Moff for wanting to restore it again.

So far we have no evidence for this. It might be a plot device and by the end of the finale, Amy and the rest of the world remember the events of RTD's era again (we don't know how much was forgotten and if other people apart from Amy have forgotten about the aliens). I think what RTD did was to make things more realistic. Anyway, in the space museum, Vicki clearly remembers that the Dalek's invaded Earth 300 years earlier. As such, even in classic Who, people were aware of aliens (even if she was from the future).

Perhaps joy that Rose would not of had to go into alternate world. Though he may be disappointed to know he is not her doctor now.

It does make it difficult to do alien stories when the whole Earth is on high alert. That's exactly the sort of thing that required a reset button for the Master's reign. The entire economy of the Earth would divert to weapons and technology, the people would be paranoid, they may even come together under a common fear.

It's difficult to manage that sort of world-wide change in attitude without completely diverging from the Earth we know and love, which as has been said, makes it harder for new people coming in.

The thing with classic who is that it acknowledged that the Human race would meet aliens one day, but were ignorant about them now. When the Doctor was one of the select few in the know about aliens, it made the Doctor/companion relationship much better. Having the whole world know about aliens and invasions etc just makes it ho hum stuff. (Incidentally, they avoided this by having Donna go off on holiday )

Good old McCoy said humans have a great ability for self deception when asking Ace if she remembers Dinosaurs swimming up the Thames (or some such, damn my memory ) but that does get harder with each massive invasion that takes place in the "present".

Anyho, I wonder if the "reset" is more about bring back the Time Lords. After all if the Doctor is going to rewrite time what one event is he likely to want to change?

The idiot's guide to rewriting the time war:

1) Take one dodgy, time rewriting crack in the universe
2) use it on rassilon in a pre time war Gallifrey

job done

Nice. Except you can't access pre time war Gallifrey without ripping time and reality to pieces. Supposedly.

Wasn't this ll explained in Series 3 by the Doctor himself? When defeating Harold Saxon he talks about nobody will remember and everything has been restored. Only those involved in the events will have memories of it. Hence how Martha's family, Lucy etc remember. Same applies to the rest here. People like Wilf were directly involved when the Earth was moved by the Daleks, therefore remembers whereas Amy does not.
The only flaw in this argument is Water of Mars, however RTD pretty much summed everything up. It's Doctor Who you can easily change time and events but it'll cause some bad events to happen. Peiople just have to remember that, what happened in Doctor Who previously can simply be changed and justified as we are watching through the Doctor's timeline and not through somebody else.

Primeval suffered from a similar problem of believability, dinosaurs swooping over golf courses, mammoths rampaging down motorways, sabre tooth tigers running through theme parks and this never seemed to make the news/internet all aparently thanks to a one woman PR department.

In this day and age it's just not possible and despite all the far more unlikely stuff going on which you can happily ignore (e.g. time travel) it's the mundane everyday stuff that stands out.

You can plausibly write off individual local events (Beast of Bodmin? Loch Ness Monster? Alien abduction?) but not one shared by everyone on Earth.

Ignoring the fact that you don't know what Deus ex Machina actually is (ie a plot such at this is not one). RTD did use a plot device similar to the crack to allow himself the same freedom to ignore the series past - he called it the Time War!

Absolutely.

If Doctor Who contained itself to aliens attacking a single lighthouse and it's sole occupant, or the 05.13 train to Bude with it's handful of commuters then you could let it go.

But not when Aliens are broadcasting to the whole of Earth, or every children on Earth freezes, or the Cybermen start rounding up everyone in every capital city.

Then you have to admit the world knows about aliens, which seperates it from our world, or have everyforget forget or be in the kitchen making a cup of tea when it happens which risks the suspension of disbelieve shattering.

Well if that was the intention it failed miserably.

All it did was make the Doc an expert on every planet and every alien, mean they couldnt draw on the rich heritage of the Time Lords and ensure that they had to use pathetic excuses to dredge back Daleks and Cybermen occasionally.

It was not so much a clean slate but a completely chalked up one.

Doesn't anyone remember the events of Fathers Day? And how time heals itself?

just a question, now discuss

I'm inclined to give Torchwood: Children of Earth a pass on this one, as I think it was much subtle threat and a plausible reaction. But I suppose it has the same problem.

I'm not sure how the Time War was supposed to give the Doctor knowledge about other planets - I think he's always know lots and lots. And the only other species affected by the war was the Daleks, not the Cybermen. Either way, you would always have to start from the position of explaining where they came from, as they're new to any viewer.

The Time War can't really be put in the same way as this Crack arc, not unless everything will be re-stored back as it was ie the memory of the Daleks and the event of the Time of Angels. Because the Time War created an arc, without having to worry too much of bringing in the Time Lords in every opportunity, but not getting rid of their history...and everything that happend in the past still happend...from the War Games to Genesis...and to whichever was the last time Gallifrey appeared in the Classic series (i've not seen every single story, so can't make claim on what story that may have been). The Time War gave them a fresh start, but as we know, the Daleks were also "non-existant" due to the Time War, yet they came back, and Davros did...and eventually the Time Lords too...oh and lets no forget the Master. So while it got rid of the Time Lords, it didn't necessarily delete the continuty....it just stopped the Time Lords appearing every five minutes, unlike the Daleks



I agree, even though I haven't been too much of a fan of the new stories, the effects have been wonderful, with the exception of Prisoner Zero.


Yes both do concentrate on new veiwers....hence why I feel that continuty isn't such a shackle for them, because for new people, contiunity doesn't matter. I mean anyone new watching Victory, or Flesh and Stone, couldn't give a toss whether Amy could remember Daleks or not, or that why the Cyberking was not recorded in history....but those little tid bits are there for fans really only. Although in this case they seemingly plat a bigger part in the story arc



That is the thing, I know people often say that (as on this thread) Earth invasions and all that take the Doctor Who universe more and more away from our world....but eventually it will have to be....after all one day we will reach a point in our future where in Doctor Who people are popping back and fourth to the Moon on T mats. I like what the Doctor says in Aliens of London....that this could be the time in history where the Human race finally realises that we are not alone in the universe. Technically that wasn't the time, as everyone dismissed it as a hoax....but the Christmas Invasion therefore became that time. Eventually things like this were going to happen, or then people would be complaining that it doesn't fit the timeline of what was established in the classic series....which also had funny little timelines when they couldn't make out whether the unit stories were set in the 70's or the 80's. These contradictions are invetible....and its only so long that people are going to stop ignoring big invasions, and then set of in charted future when Aliens and Humans are out there in space!

Personally despite most people knowing about aliens and stuff in the Whouniverse, people still have that "Oh my GoD" look to them whenever anything happens. For example Martha....who knew of the events in Doomsday, still was in awe of the wonders of the univers...still wasn't un-phased by aliens....Amy on the other hand, and the people of Leadworth, despite living in a time where Journey's End didn't happen, seemed quite un-phased by the Atarxi spaceship hovering over their village, none of them said "Oh aliens do exist!!!!" and so on....which in the end shows that Moff hasn't deleted every alien contact of Earth history.....and I don't think he will go to far either, at least not going by the reactions of Leadworth.


Like I said above the Time War isn't exactly the same as the Crack....but in terms of the DEM....John didn't mean that the Crack was a DEM, but rather that if RTD had written it, it would have been considerd as one, or at least as an easy/lazy way out....by some....and I point to the example of the quote below, that no matter what RTD does, it will be twisted by some as the worse thing possible, however, if Moff had come up with the idea of the Time War, it would have been a genious idea.


See what I mean!!!

The interesting thing about the Cybermen is that one these are not actually alien in the New Who. The events of Doomsday would have left quite a few people confused, as they saw the Cybermen as ghosts first....who then turned into these metal Cyborgs.....only London saw the Daleks...and not for very long either. I don't think the world even saw the Cybermen as an alien species....


Another interesting point is that Gwen says to Jack in Day one of TW series 1.....that it was said all that Cybermen thing was an hullucination...so some people chose to ignore it in their own way. Its only London I think that didn't forget that easily....example Martha, because I think the only Cyber factory was in London, so they obviously may have not even converted the rest of the world, and so only people in London would have lost freinds and families.

No the Time War was a rubbish idea - it limited the number of different stories possible. No Time Lords, (supposedly) no Daleks etc etc.

Yes the idea of a big war that the Doctor participated in was ok but the TimeLock and so on was stupid and short-sighted.

Like? What stories set on Gallifrey? Or stories where Time Lords would interfere? Because all of Classic who was based around those wasn't it?



You may not like the Time War....but it hardly limited them....and considering that the Daleks came back....and the Master, its not impposible to make up something to vbring back the Time Lords.....and the Time Lock thing wasn't mentioned up untill end of series 4....so its highly short sighted is it? It just gave the possiblity that the Doctor can be wrong...and that Time Lords can return....Its all fiction...the rules for this are not set in ground, because they have always been more or less ambigious with the fact we haven't had 100 word essay detail on what happend exactly in the Time War, and niether shown it.


If Moff can come up with a crack that now can re-write time....a crack that has never existed before....surely RTD can do do the same by saying the Time lords are supposedly gone because of the Time war....

ok.. so could'nt the doctor go back in time, many years before the time war and do something small and insignificant ... like the butterfly effect that would alter the path of time causing the time war never to have happened..? would this be re-writing time ?

.. Just a question ..

Hear, Hear, totally agree!