I have yet to come across a fan from it's earliest days who talks down to people. I started watching from the 1980's, but I never think that gives me right to be superior to those who started watching the new who series. You can be advisory to new fans but never look down on them. After, all, it is just a TV programme and not some form of class system!

I think each to their own, and the beauty of Who is that new fans are picked up on the way. But... have you never ever wanted to watch a classic episode, not even a tiny little bit.

Yeah, OK-fair point on that one. Maybe I'm starting to see why us RTD haters irritated some people...

(but it's still nice to be in the majority for once)

Its actually more easier to encourage people to watch Classic Who when you have people willing to have proper discussions with you. And not to hold it against the person who decides not too...and not to say that they are not a real fan only because they like the new series.

Fair enough, I'm glad you are now enjoying the show, but here's the thing, the RTD era 'just worked' for many, many fans, and yet that didn't stop you from constantly telling them what was wrong with it.

Now the situation is reversed you get very defensive, and often offensive, when posters dare to criticise this series.

Can you not see how these double standards 'gets peoples backs up', to use your own phrase.

Well why not jsut say that then???? Because you have never said that....it was a straight point of being all those things not working to now championing those things. Yiu didn't ever say "oh actually the whole sex thing does work now" or "actually I think have stories about human nature and full of depths isn't that bad at all"


And Your argument works even more better here, (even if I don't agree that the stories are better written, complex or stronger) because you say it works for you, without dismissing someone else's opinion and at no point do you sound patronising as sometimes that you do!


Thankyou!!!

I think you are really generalising here. I think you will find most people that came to show post 2005 are still very happy with the series: the AI's remain high, the viewing figures are as good as ever. Just because a minority have an issue don't go making sweeping generlisations about the audience as a whole.

Further I see very little evidence in the new series (which I am enjoying very much, btw) to support your claims of to it being radically different. I doubt most casual viewers will even be aware the man in charge has changed frankly.

Anyway, to back up what I said earlier about the show being as popular as ever in spite of what some people seem to implying in this thread:

Average final ratings after 4 episodes:

Series 1 - 8.81m
Series 5 - 8.72m
Series 2 - 8.51m
Series 4 - 8.19m
Series 3 - 7.76m

Looks to me like people are not being put off by MS at all.

And i have found myself in the minority this time...but I certainly haven't onced criticised the new series in the way you used to in terms of making someof us feel that we are easily pleased or whatever....and I have been fully appreciating that everyone else is fully enjoying...that is always a good thing, and long may that continue...so what if I am of the few that haven't definitely not the end of the world. RTD or Moff or anyone that is yet to come cannot please everyone....

Looks like Smith is bringing in more viewers than Tennant!

^- This. Times a hundred. The elements are the same. The shifts are tonal and minor. I appreciate the extra levels of detail, but I understand that that may make it harder to get a hold of. You always knew what to feel with RTD, he was always good at getting that across. SM seems to be going for more ambiguity and mystery.

Maybe it will grow on you. I hope so.

... and CE brought in more than either of them. Let's get him back then.

I wouldn't go that far yet. You have to bear in mind that series 4 had it's best figures in the second half of the series (wound up with the highest average overall by half a million or so) so I do think that it will still wind up being higher. The ratings that the last few episodes got, especially JE, would be very hard to top. I think what is important is that at this stage the show is on course to keep a strong, loyal audience who are happy with the direction of the show in to MS's next series.

Don't think anyone really cares about your schooboy simpering over David Tennant.

Hah! Thank you, that's it-that's the thing I couldn't quite put into words about why I disliked RTD's stuff and why I'm enjoying Moffat more; you 'always knew what to feel'! In other words, it was written in such a way as to try and manipulate the emotions of the viewer-and I hate that. If a character or a scene is so well written or well acted that I genuinely feel something, great-but if it's too clearly designed to get that response, it just grates on me and I get irritated by it. Moffat isn't tugging on any heart strings, and that's a refreshing change.

Without trying to inflame any argument here, could this be related to why people feel that the S5 characters are 'colder'? Because their relationships are somewhat more ambiguous?

Possibly. I don't think they're colder, they're just-as you say-not as obviously defined, not as easy to 'get' instantly. But then, real people aren't. You have to get to know people before you can decide whether or not you like them.

I liked 'old' Who.

I liked the complete asexualiy of it when there was never any suggestion of hanky-panky between any of the occupants of the Tardis (apart from a strange dream I had involving the Fifth Doctor and Adric, but I really don't want to think about that!).

I liked the first four series of 'new' Who.

I liked the 'soap-opery' bits of it and who fancied who, Martha's unrequited love and Rose's requited (sort of) love and the Doctor's best friend, Donna.

I like Matt Smith as an actor, he was brilliant in Ruby in the Smoke and Party Animals.

But ...

Like the OP, Series 5 is just leaving me cold. After 5 episodes, I still don't "get" this Doctor. I really want to like him but I haven't yet.

Karen Gillen - good actor, but again, I can't warm to her character.

It's not helped by Episodes 2 and 3 (and to a certain extent episode 5) being underwhelming, nor that there was no build up over the preceding episodes before Amy tried to get into the Doctor's knickers in Episode 5 (oh, and btw - if that had been the otherway round with a Man trying to undress a Woman in his bedroom and ignoring her pleas to stop, how uncomfortable viewing that would have been? so why was it OK this way round?).

And I hear the cries from some to watch the same episodes more than once to catch all the detail, but isn't this programme aimed at a general family audience who just want to be entertained for 45 minutes and are not going to do that? And if the programme loses that audience as it did with some of the Colin Baker/Slyvester McCoy stories, then isn't it going to go the same way and be cancelled again?

At the moment, it seems there's no danger of that. Quite the reverse.

The programme is not losing it's audience though. There will always be a small number of people that find it hard to adjuct to a new Doctor, thats to be expected, but the FACT is that this series is doing as well as other in terms of rating and AI. There is no evidence to support the notion that people are stopping watching the show whatsoever.

No, I agree. People aren't not watching. Maybe different people are watching but either way, people are still watching.

And the general consensus seems to be that Matt Smith is spectacular. I really do feel sorry for people who don't like him. I wasn't a massive fan of Dr Gurn so it's been relatively easy for me to take to the gorgeous Mr Smith.

I have to agree with this, as excellent as I thought TOA/FAB were now I have viewed them twice I've found I have no desire to view them again, at all. With the previous 4 series there are only 3 episodes that I skip past on the box sets, just three. (Fear Her, The Idiots Lantern and Planet Of The Dead) and even though there are still some more episodes that I find 'average' there is always something joyous to find in them, not so with this new series Im afraid. With this new series out of the four episodes so far there is only TEH that I want rewatch on my SKY+. Already this series has matched my 'skip past' count of the entire previous 4 series.


I also have to say I think Matt Smith is superb, phenomenally superb in the role but for me it is like a lot of the classics once you get out of the Top Ten list, great lead performances in ultimately lifeless and drab stories (IMO), now I am finding that any joy and fun, that any character dynamics that were once in the show have been completely sucked out of it, they have just vanished. I cared more for the 'substitute' family in 'TEH' than I have about any characters since then, again IMO.

Its early days yet, very early days I know, I remember not being overly impressed for a while after Tom Baker first sat up, but at the moment it has to be said that as a fan I also might not be treating myself to the box set this Xmas, wow that's hard to say.

Now despite that I'm happy that the viewing figure are more than holding up, I'm happy that many people are enjoying it far more than I am.

how can you say that Ok, it's a Jammie Dodger. But I was promised tea!

Yes there have been some funny and great lines but for me I was talking about the overall feel of the show that pulls me back to watch episodes over and over again.

I'd argue it the opposite, with RTD's writing I always find layers and layers of stuff...nothing is what it seems on the surface. A scene may look happy, but there would be sadness in it, a scene may look sad, but there will be happiness within it. One scene never has one feeling to it....and the best example is Love and Monsters, the often hated story. On the surface one would think its a farce comedy, but its not, its much more than that. While with Moff's stories...with the exception of The Empty Child two parter and now the Beast Below....I find his stories very holllow....I get what I see, the characters may not be one dimensional, but any layers to them are there in front of you...there is nothing to explore from them on repeat viewings. Blink is a fun clever story....but lacks depth of any sort....it has the potentyail to have some dark themes, I mean after all the Angels would send you back in time, and away from your family and freinds....yet the fact that it is almost shown twice that those who go back live happy and content lives, with Billy mourning getting, however he would have done that anyway once he had got old, that was part of who he was, not a consequence of his predictment...and then for Sally once all the answes have been given she can move on happily ever after. Same with TGITF....we see a bit of a superficail tragic love story, who's death is not a consequence because of the involvement with the Doctor or any other events in the story....yes its sad for the Doctor...but its just "awww poor lonely angel" (come on that is more lovey dovey cr*p than what RTD has ever done), with the Library two parter, same with Blink, the consequences could have been darker....but everyone is happy with the results, even the Docyor is able to smile that he "saved" River to enternal virtual world. The potentail darkness is not coverd....we are forced to accept that they are happy!


You don't get that with RTD's work.....nothing is as black and white as that.

I don't find Amy cold....like I said, Moff writes layerd characters that are quite obvious from the start. I already knew what she was like by the end of TEH...the only mystery there is the crack which is following her and the Doctor...and that is a series arc, will it add to her character? I don't know....but even if it didn't, I still love her the way she is, and understand why she is like that.



I hope so too


I firmly believe that the Show is bigger than the actors...because everytime we have an actor come into the show, they leave even more popular than before.....The show makes them, because majority of the people love the show....rather than the actor. This whole doom and gloom that some people predict because someone new comes in, is a load of rubbish. The fact is this new year it was proved that the show is biiger than ever, when it went against Corrie and won!!!