Nope I think, your are spot on. There is something to love about all of these doctors. I'm just watching "The Krotons" on Blinkbox (thanks again to the two lovely people who suggested it). Over the week-end I watched "The talons of Weng Chiang" with Tom Baker and the "Space Museum" with William Hartnell. In each of the episodes, the doctor was the doctor and likeable, funny, interesting, intriguing, and believable. It's an absolut genius concept, something we should celebrate. I would not want the show to end, because the headwriter or the actor playing the doctor decides to go. I love Dr Who for what it is, brilliant entertainment.

If you can find it watch Robot (Tom Baker's first adventure), and compare Tom's performance in that to his performance in Talons, and you'll see what I mean about a new Doctor needing a little time to tune their performance/interpretation.

The early 70s "state of the art" special effects in Robot don't help.

Matthew

Oh I watched Robot, and I totally agree. Every doctor needs some time to settle in, but they ultimately grow on me. With the pre-Sylvester McCoy ones (for me) it's not a problem anyway, because I have not seen their episodes in sequence. I just meant that I like things about different doctors, and that they all have interesting characteristics. Sometimes it takes me some time to warm to them, but then they are the doctor again. I completely understand if people take longer than me though.

Sorry to go slightly off-topic here, but I liked Tom Baker's earlier performances. Okay, Robot he was a bit nutty at first but there was a certain charm, freshness and relaxation about him, which didn't really show much after his first season as he became more physical in his approach and at times more angrier. I'm not saying he wasn't charming later on, it was differently put across during his earlier stories. Hope that makes sense!

I watched old Who when I was a child up until my teens but have absolutely no desire to revisit any of them. I've just ordered the box set of New Who though having got hooked on the series towards the end of 4 so I've got 3 and a half seasons to look forward to (yay!)

Am enjoying Matt Smith as the Doctor too. I think DT was a hard act to follow but I think Matt Smith has enough character to do the job. Liked the last two parter but the first three shows lacked something IMO.

I love Tom's very early OTT performance as well! In fact I love it when any Doctor is OTT...it makes sense for them to be OTT....its suits the Doctor very much!

Ah, I'm like a child in a toyhouse at the moment, because there are so many classic Dr Who that I haven't seen and can still discover (tonight I'll be watching the last episode of Kronos) (as an aside I can really see the comparison between Patrick Troughton and Matt). Have fun with discovering the rest of New Who though. I particularly loved the first series with CE and the fourth series with DT


Yep I would agree, and it's one of the reasons, why I even liked Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy, and why I still need to discover my full love for Peter Davison (need to watch the caves of Andrazani).

Well that's the problem..... imo I don't watch DW for soap I watch EE for that. I watch DW for sci-fi and fantasy. As far as I'm concerned Moffat is doing the right thing. I didn't like RTD scripts precisely because they were too soapy.

I like the fact that the Doctor isn't on an emotional rollercoster; that he isn't kissing his companions (yet!); that the sentimentalism is too a minimum.... that is not what DW is too me.

TBH, I'd prefer DW to go back to what it was which was an adventure sci-fi show and only get 6-7m viewers, than warp into some odd mixture of soap opera sci-fi and draw 8-9m viewers. If you want soap, I think you should watch EE or Corrie or EM.

Well, thank you for your advice but I do not follow any of the soaps so I don't intend to start now. My point was that I enjoyed the soap element in Dr. Who; it was what hooked me into it in the first place.

When was she being a cold, sulky whinger? She's shown a range of emotions that appear to be appropriate for the different situations she's been in. In "Beast" and "Victory" it was precisely her lack of coldness that helped saved the day. We've seen scenes showing her laughing, joking and amazed by the wonderful things going on around her. I like her giving the Doctor a telling off every now and then. They show she's not a just a passive bystander and tend to be funny. When she thought her arm was stone she bravely asked the Doctor to leave her and assured him she wasn't "clingy". Hardly a whinger.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to find examples of what you say, but I'd not define her character as that. The opposite in fact. Was the sulking when she shut herself in the portacabin with the Angel video? Hardly sulking - just bemused to find herself at a loose end. Have you ever felt a bit like that when on the fringes of some activity you can't directly help with? I sometimes go sailing with people that know more about it than I - you sometimes feel a little like a spare part waiting to be told what rope to pull.

I'm not having a go - if you don't like it, then you don't. I just don't understand the reasoning. Maybe it's because I've enjoyed every episode so far. Some really good stuff. I liked the RTD era but so far this is, for me, avoiding some of the things I liked less well about his way of doing this. Pity about the fat daleks though. Early days though. I hope Amy gets more than one series (and MS can stay as long as he wants.)

What you mean like saving the world from a bomb with Love? Or the final scene in flesh and Stones? Or the fact that Amy to is getting married and we have all that stuff with her fiance to come? or the Doctor coming up with a virus on the phone from thin air?



You mean the same kiss that he didn't kiss back in? You mean the lack of emotions and sentamility that made Amy decide to press the Abdicate button? or the again the defusal of the bomb in Victory by love? Seriuosly are people watching a different show?



Thing is, how do you knwo that all the 10 million that watch now all watch for the soap element? Considering that in series 4, we had a huge lack of romance...and how do you know that the 6-7 million who watched in the past watched for the sci-fi element only....considering that even that wasn't pure sci-fi....everyone watches for different reasons....some watch for the scares, some for entertainment, and some something else completely.

Thing is the things that are easily dismissed as "soapy" in Doctor Who....happen to appear in most highly repsected Sci-fi shows of today....they also appear in Shakespearean plays....the even appear in movies that are considerd as male action movies.....and even subtly appear in Classic Doctor Who....

Apparently, since I've never seen a bomb defused by love. No-one is suggesting that the series should never have emotional moments, on the contrary, emotional connection is extremely important for any sci-fi, fantasy, or adventure. But it must not be allowed to get in the way of the story, it must act in service of the story.

To use your example, Bracewell didn't defuse the bomb with love, he did it with humanity. He asserted his independence as a human being - took back control of his own identity from the Daleks. He had to be made to feel - emotion used as a tool to drive the plot.

I like Jackie and Mickey. I like how they were used, how they reflected the journey that Rose went on, and worked as plot hooks. I like the idea of Rory - it only remains to see how that shifts the dynamic in the TARDIS.

but that isn't what people have really said....they have just talked about the last five years being soapy and sentimental.....you could argue that most things that happend in the last couple of years was also to drive the plot....for example the kiss between Martha and the Doctor, is part of the plot....buy yet people see it as an excuse to kiss, when the the same people are justifying the kiss between Amy and the Doctor as part of the wider plot. The so called reunion scene in Stolen Earth, where the Doctor got so happy to see Rose that he didn't notice the Dalek which then shot him....but people often just go on about how sentimental that scene is. I agree there is nothing wrong with emotions....but i think those who denying it exists in the new series are not really saying that it doesn't take the focus of the plot....they just don't seem to be moaning about it. After all that scene in The Beast Below, when everything is done and dusted, and Amy and the Doctor are having a moment, it doesn't really add anything to the plot....but it is a character moment....yet these very same character moments are dismissed in of the last five years as wasting precious plot time.


And as for Bracewell...considering that he was feeling human anyway....even after he found out....all his emotions were still very human....the fact he wanted to die, because he felt his whole life had not been real....the emotions that generated this were very human feelings....what the doctor was making him think about was alos human feelings....there had not been a point in the story to suggest that him having feelings about love would defuse a bomb, it was activated by the Daleks, who where very suprised that it had been defused, suggesting that they hadn't created it in a way that it could be defused...and even both Amy and the Doctor were guessing....nothing more than guess work. Lucky it worked.

apologies given

I'm going to flame you for one thing only.....for twisting my post into something its NOT!


i have not once said that RTD, DT, BP or wny of the past people to come back...


i am loving every minute of Matt and Karen....show me exactly where i said i don't!!!

I ma just playing the Devil's advocate and challenging those who think there is some huge change between the new series and that which has gone in the last five years....those who feel that the so called emotions and soapy elements have disappeared....thos who feel that Matt's Doctor has become more alien than Tennant'sDoctor just because he refused to kiss Amy....although he didn't push away completely at one point


I'm just challenging those who feel that the new series is some kind of savior of the last five years of so called rubbish.


i haven't been a big fan of all the stories so far...but I don't have a problem with the emotion stuff....i don't even have a problem with Barcewell being defused by love...what i have an issue with his others seem to now think its all of a sudden proper sci-fi


PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT BEFORE ACCUSING ME

Hope that is clear enough!

There's a difference between emotion and sentimentality. Martha being kissed by the Doctor is a strong character beat, one that sets up their relationship (while also being relevant to the plot). Amy and the Doc's hug on the whale was much the same - it showed that the Doc needed to trust her as well as her trusting him.

Other scenes were filmed like greetings cards and the emotions came across feeling sappy, hollow and overindulgent.

Like I said, the elements haven't changed, but the texture has.

He wasn't thinking of himself as human, that's the point - they shattered every part of his identity, even his memories weren't his. But it was those memories, his feelings that could be brought to the surface by the Doctor and Amy that made him truly human.

Again, it wasn't feelings of love that saved him. It was his human side asserting control over his android side. Indomitable spirit and all that. If you want an allegory, try the war itself.

I think its fair to say that this is quite subjective....a scene some people say is to sentimental, may not be the same for another...for me the most sentimental scenes have been the letter reading in the GITF (but part of me still loves that sappyness of it)...or the Doctor saying to Rose she needs a Doctor (even though the kiss is part of the plot, and again part of me loves the sappiness of it)

While the often called "Overindulgent" rewards scene in EOT part 2....for me its not sappy at all....its a huge character moment, and the Doctor finally doing things that show how humble he has become since the whole Time Lord Victorious scene....the idea that he is doing stuff for the "little poeple"....and for me it is requred in the very sense why i know feel the eleneth Doctor is able to move on from the whole "i don't need anyone" feelings. But yet people describe those scenes as sappy/overindulgent/hollow and so on...

And that is what the Doctor was using....but that didn't work.



So it was love and happy memories...things nothing to do with the war. Not the indomitable spirit...the strength to fight and survive....but a focus on pretty flowers.

And i'd argue that his questioning his identity is very human thing to do. A robot wouldn't have the capacity....but the Daleks gave him the capacity to think and feel like a human. its like someone finding out that they are adopted....and the range of emotions that they go through...feeling that their life was nothing but a lie. If he didn't have the human emotions already, the moment he found out he would have just acted like an andriod.....so really it doesn't make sene.

Again i don't hate that such a thing happend....it just happend to suddenly for my liking as most things in that story...i am not a big fan of that story mainly because of the pacing....nothing more nothing less....every scene just jarrs with the next scene.

Personally I wouldn't use a Gattis episode as a good judge of the new series. I found his work to be a low water mark of the previous seasons and expect it to be no different for this.

YMMV of course

I'm not sure if you're understanding what I'm saying. The war allegory was for your benefit, not Bracewells!

He wasn't a robot, he was an android, of course he had emotions. What mattered was whether he felt he had those emotions because they were programmed into him, or whether they were real because he was human.

It is like feeling you're adopted. When you find out, do your family cease to be your family? Is your love for them a lie? Or do they continue to be your family because your love for them was real?

Oh the constant battering anti/pro RTD/ Moffat is leaving me a little punch drunk. There have been quite a few sci-fi stories where an android discovers it's own humanity/love/ sentimentality etc. Blade Runner for instance. Bracewell did love with flowers and his own humanity so your both right.OK?! Now back to MS, liking the blue bow tie.

I agree, I liked his Who novels but all of his TV episodes so far have fallen a little flat, I think.

well series 5 has proven nothing more than a success story for me, my mum,brother and sister and the 8-10million that manage to tune in, due to BBC One,HD and Iplayer many now have the opportunity to catch the show. Mainly the lower initial ratings of 6-8 million are due to the fact the show is on between 6 and 6:30 every week now, i mean this week it is bang on 6pm!!! how rediculous is that! but i never miss the show now.
i used to LOVE the show, now i am IN LOVE with the show.
Matt has reawakened my interest in what the show should be and my interest in sci-fi. Matt's doctor is MY doctor and what Moffatt has done with the series thus far is ingenius, after 1 episode i was hooked and pulled in and am staying on board right until the end! i have seen the previous series and felt series 4 was where it took shape more! i just loved Dt and CT's chemistry that series, i will miss Donna Noble.

but Matt and Karen really make this show more than entertainment but EVENT TELLY!!
pure class stuff, and despite some mixed opinions on the Dalek episode, i personally loved it and thought it showed the characters off really well and reflected the idea that the Daleks are a formiddable foe and whatever the doctor chose in the few minutes the Daleks would have won, now they're creating a new empire!!! which is nothing short of exciting!!
it feels like CLASSIC Who! re-invented, it has the right combination of everything.
i wish more tuned in for the show though. but it is still higher ratings than previous series have been for end of week totals, but due to mass widespread choice of channels,schedules etc.etc. some miss the opportunity. but 8-10 million every week is astounding!!

Really enjoying the new series, and for me Matt Smith is a terrific Doctor. I may even end up liking him more than Christopher Eccleston.

Although I also liked David Tennant's portrayal, I have to admit that I am missing Donna more than the last doctor

Great to see that the viewing figures remain high