DS Forums

 
 

Denon AVR-1909 Crossover Frequency Settings Help + Blu-ray screen flicker?


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-05-2010, 17:21
Netgem
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 640

Hi

I have no idea what these mean so if someone could help that'd be great! I have a Denon AVR-1909 with Kef KHT 1005 speakers and a Kef PSW 1000.2 subwoofer.

After an initial automatic setup with the included microphone, I haven't really touched the settings apart from adjusting the speaker distances which weren't so accurate. Additionally, Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Volume is enabled (not sure what they do!)

I have no idea what Crossover Frequency is so please advise if these settings look correct for my speakers!

Front (small) - 250Hz
Center (small) - 200Hz
Surround (small) - 200Hz
LFE - 80hz

Additionally, on a side note, when watching Blu-ray discs, in darker scenes (e.g. end credits), the screen appears to flicker in brightness repeatedly - this does not happen with Sky HD or games for some reason.

Many thanks!
Netgem is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 09-05-2010, 20:03
chrisjr
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Reading
Posts: 27,925
Crossover Frequency is the frequency at which one speaker takes over from another, in this context at least.

In a HiFi speaker it is usual to have at least two separate drive units, one for the lower frequencies and one for the higher frequencies. This is basically because the range of frequencies a speaker can reproduce is related to the physical size. So a big diameter speaker can do low frequencies better than high. Hence having more than one drive unit.

The drive units are connected to a filter that feeds them a part of the frequency range. Where the ranges change from one drive unit to the other is the Cross Over point, easy really.

Now in Home Theatre systems it is common to have a completely separate speaker cabinet for the low frequencies so the filter moves from the speaker to the amplifier. But the same principle applies. The sub woofer is fed signals over one range and the other speakers signals over a different range. With the cross over being where they intersect.

If the Denon is anything like my Onkyo you would be better off turning off all the Audyssey EQ, Dynamic EQ and volume. I have found they only mess up the sound on my system. If you have good speakers then you probably don't need to muck about with EQ and the like.
chrisjr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 13:46
Deacon1972
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
Hi

I have no idea what these mean so if someone could help that'd be great! I have a Denon AVR-1909 with Kef KHT 1005 speakers and a Kef PSW 1000.2 subwoofer.

After an initial automatic setup with the included microphone, I haven't really touched the settings apart from adjusting the speaker distances which weren't so accurate. Additionally, Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Volume is enabled (not sure what they do!)

I have no idea what Crossover Frequency is so please advise if these settings look correct for my speakers!

Front (small) - 250Hz
Center (small) - 200Hz
Surround (small) - 200Hz
LFE - 80hz

Additionally, on a side note, when watching Blu-ray discs, in darker scenes (e.g. end credits), the screen appears to flicker in brightness repeatedly - this does not happen with Sky HD or games for some reason.

Many thanks!
I find room EQ works better on bookshelf/floorstanders much better, never had good results when using satellite speakers.

Those settings above look way out and wrong, the sub xover doesn't even match the frequency range room EQ has set the speakers too.

Personally I'd switch the room EQ off and set them up manually.

The frequency range for your model Kef's are 120Hz - set the main speakers up at 130Hz and xover for the sub at 130Hz.

You can apply manual EQ if the amp allows.
Deacon1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 23:57
RobAnt
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: South West
Posts: 10,218
Not sure it's a good idea to roll in/out at the same frequency - I would allow some leeway.

ie - roll out the main speakers at 120hz, and roll in the sub at 130hz (remember that 130hz is a higher frequency than 120hz). This is because the speakers don't suddenly switch on or off at any given frequency, if you look at a graph you will see that they slope gradually. Many speakers have this performance graph printed in the instructions that come with them.

My own speakers roll off at 40hz, so if I had a sub I would set it to roll in at 70hz (to cover 60hz to 20hz), and roll out the mains at about 50 or 60hz (to cover 20khz to about 55hz).

But the best way is to use your ears and find the settings that please you most.
RobAnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2010, 10:45
Deacon1972
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
Not sure it's a good idea to roll in/out at the same frequency - I would allow some leeway.

ie - roll out the main speakers at 120hz, and roll in the sub at 130hz (remember that 130hz is a higher frequency than 120hz). This is because the speakers don't suddenly switch on or off at any given frequency, if you look at a graph you will see that they slope gradually. Many speakers have this performance graph printed in the instructions that come with them.
There shouldn't be a problem altering the room EQ settings so the mains are at 130Hz and the sub is at 130Hz, where speakers don't suddenly stop producing frequencies at their rated response, neither do crossovers.

All frequencies are covered - Where problems arise is where you have speakers that are only rated at 120Hz and you set the Xover to 80Hz, there would be a hole in the frequencies between 120Hz and 80Hz.

Personally I would switch the room EQ off completely with satellite speakers. I'd set the speaker size to small (which they are already) and set the sub Xover to 130Hz, there will be no need to set separate speaker frequencies up then.
My own speakers roll off at 40hz, so if I had a sub I would set it to roll in at 70hz (to cover 60hz to 20hz), and roll out the mains at about 50 or 60hz (to cover 20khz to about 55hz).

But the best way is to use your ears and find the settings that please you most.
If you had a sub and were using it for home cinema (5.1) you'd be recommended to set speakers to small and set the sub Xover to 80Hz, you wouldn't need any setting for the main speakers, the small setting works together with the Xover setting, the main speakers would roll off at 80Hz. If you set the Xover to 100Hz, the main speakers then roll off at 100Hz.

Alternatively, you could use the Large setting and drop the Xover from 80Hz to 50Hz, but for home cinema 80Hz is normally recommended, even when the main speakers have a half decent LF response. I'd rather the main speakers work less and have the sub do the job it was designed to do.
Deacon1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2010, 11:03
Glawster2002
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire
Posts: 10,410
Whilst I aghree with everything written here with regards cross-over frequencies for speaker it should be rememberd this is a software setting on an amp, so things like roll off don't apply in that context.

All setting the LFE cross-over frequency in am amp does is set the band-pass filter level, so if it is set for 80Hz, all frequencies below 80Hz are sent to the Sub output and everything above are sent to the other speakers.

It seems in general the recommended method is to set all the speaker "sizes" to small and then set the LFE cross-over frequenxy slightly above the lowest response frequency of the other speakers.

As for the other settings, I have a Denon AVR-3310 so I know the settings you are referring to and I've found that experimenting with them is the best way as no two rooms are the same and, as such., there is no right or wrong setting.
Glawster2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2010, 13:40
Deacon1972
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
Whilst I aghree with everything written here with regards cross-over frequencies for speaker it should be rememberd this is a software setting on an amp, so things like roll off don't apply in that context.

All setting the LFE cross-over frequency in am amp does is set the band-pass filter level, so if it is set for 80Hz, all frequencies below 80Hz are sent to the Sub output and everything above are sent to the other speakers.

It seems in general the recommended method is to set all the speaker "sizes" to small and then set the LFE cross-over frequenxy slightly above the lowest response frequency of the other speakers.

As for the other settings, I have a Denon AVR-3310 so I know the settings you are referring to and I've found that experimenting with them is the best way as no two rooms are the same and, as such., there is no right or wrong setting.
Totally agree - it was wrong to use the term roll off in this instance.

I was trying to explain their wouldn't be an issue if mains/sub were set to the same setting of 130Hz under room EQ conditions.

Just to clarify - Having the mains/sub Xover set to 130Hz would result in the mains producing everything down to 130Hz then everything from 130Hz down would be sent to the sub.

Using a manual setting with room EQ off, speakers would need to be set to small and the sub Xover set to 130Hz, no frequency setting is required for the main speakers.
Deacon1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2010, 15:06
Glawster2002
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire
Posts: 10,410
Totally agree - it was wrong to use the term roll off in this instance.

I was trying to explain their wouldn't be an issue if mains/sub were set to the same setting of 130Hz under room EQ conditions.

.
No problem - I understood what you meant, I just added my bit for those who weren't so sure.

For my speakers the recommendation is to set them all to small, even though the front speakers go down to 40Hz,, and use the LFE cross-over frequency setting on the amp to set the level with a recommended setting of 80Hz..
Glawster2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2010, 15:56
Deacon1972
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
No problem - I understood what you meant, I just added my bit for those who weren't so sure.

For my speakers the recommendation is to set them all to small, even though the front speakers go down to 40Hz,, and use the LFE cross-over frequency setting on the amp to set the level with a recommended setting of 80Hz..
The same setting for mine, I've tried all sorts of settings in the past, but have always gone back to the THX recommended 80Hz setting.

I see you have the Denon 3310, v.nice - DPLIIz, even more speakers.

I've been contemplating upgrading my 3806 for a while now as I've run out of HDMI inputs, I doubt I will improve on the sound dramatically, but there are few features on some of the current amps I wouldn't mind having. The thing is I only use the amp for it's processing as I use active speakers, so it seems a waste to by another amp which has both elements in one box, maybe a stand-alone processor would be better. I'd like to stay with Denon if I can, but have you seen the price of their processor, it's £6k.
Deacon1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 09:10
Glawster2002
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire
Posts: 10,410
I see you have the Denon 3310, v.nice - DPLIIz, even more speakers.

I've been contemplating upgrading my 3806 for a while now as I've run out of HDMI inputs, I doubt I will improve on the sound dramatically, but there are few features on some of the current amps I wouldn't mind having. The thing is I only use the amp for it's processing as I use active speakers, so it seems a waste to by another amp which has both elements in one box, maybe a stand-alone processor would be better. I'd like to stay with Denon if I can, but have you seen the price of their processor, it's £6k.
I don't have enough room to make 7.1 worthwhile, but you can re-configure the rear outputs on the AVR-3310 to bi-amp the front speakers, so I've done that instead!!

I've a number of external amps I've gathered over the years and I thought the same, just buy a processor and re-use the power amps I have but, like you, I was staggered at how much processors go for. It seems odd they can't produce a more reasonably priced one but then I suppose they would say there isn't the demand.

I'd never get away with powered speakers but I've got some really nice American Sunfire wall-mounted speakers which, with the cables in the wall, tick all the boxes as far as my wife is concerned!!!
Glawster2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 15:54
Deacon1972
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,103
I don't have enough room to make 7.1 worthwhile, but you can re-configure the rear outputs on the AVR-3310 to bi-amp the front speakers, so I've done that instead!!

I've a number of external amps I've gathered over the years and I thought the same, just buy a processor and re-use the power amps I have but, like you, I was staggered at how much processors go for. It seems odd they can't produce a more reasonably priced one but then I suppose they would say there isn't the demand.

I'd never get away with powered speakers but I've got some really nice American Sunfire wall-mounted speakers which, with the cables in the wall, tick all the boxes as far as my wife is concerned!!!
I'm lucky enough to have the room for the extra rear surrounds, so there were no issues upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1, apart from when I changed from passive speakers to actives, even though my partner is just as enthusiastic as I am, they were not too happy with the recabling, speaker wire is one thing, but having extra mains sockets installed, then having to conceal XLR cables and mains leads was a little too much. Now it's all done they can now see it was all worth it.

I have had pre-pro systems in the past, Rotel and Parasound and have been very pleased with them, I have only had passive speakers working with them though. I would really like to have a high end processor hooked up to my actives, seems the logical way to go, apart from the cost.

Still, I'm more than happy with what I have at the moment, just need to address the input situation.

With the summer fast approaching, I have a feeling my time/money will be needed elsewhere, my Mrs has big plans for the garden this year - Oh well.
Deacon1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2010, 17:08
Glawster2002
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire
Posts: 10,410
I know the feeling, my wife has just mentiond something called "decorating", I'll have to Google it I think, it's a new one on me!!
Glawster2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-05-2010, 21:38
Netgem
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 640
Thank you ALL for your valuable help. I'm gonna have a play around in a bit!

Here are the specs for my speakers - any guidance?

Model - HTS1001.2 Satellite / HTC1001.2 Centre

Type - Two-way closed box LF Drive Unit 75mm (3in.) Uni-Q®, 15mm (0.6in.) aluminium HF

Crossover Frequency - 3kHz

Frequency range (± 3 dB) - 120Hz - 22kHz

Amplifier Requirement - 10 - 100Watts

Sensitivity (2.83 V / 1 m) - 86dB

Maximum Output - 104dB SPL @ 1m

Impedance - 8Ω
Netgem is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:47.