Hi All!

I have been keeping cold water fish for the last 15 months.

I have have always done a 25% water change every 3 weeks, and treated it with Aqua safe.
I feed them once a day.
The tank is 1 meter in length with a 1 1/2 foot depth and height.
Fully working pump and filter.
I add white spot treatment before adding new fish then repeat the treatment 48 hrs later.

I have been lucky and not had many deaths until recently!!
I have had the water tested and been told by the store the water is fine.

I purchased 4 fish from a trusted shop. This left the Tank holding 9 normal sized fish, red caps, Blow fish, etc. and 10 tiny fish.
In the last 2 weeks I have lost 3 fish now I think another 2 are on the way out.
Now have 6 normal size and 10 small ones.

The "Infected" fish, will just rest at the bottom of the tank, either laying flat down or just not moving at all. They attempt food but don't seem to have an apetite. A few days later I find them floating on the top dead.

Any one? Any Ideas?

Thanks in advance..

could really do with knowing exactly what fish you have in there. a 36 x 18 x 18 inch tank which is what you say you have works out at around 40 uk gallons. this is enough for 3 fancy goldfish. also, you really should be doing weekly partial water changes with a gravel vac. let us know what other inhabitants there are and we can see if we can help

Maybe I have added to many fish.

I have remaining

2 Blackmoors
2 Bubble eye Goldfish
Cant remember the name of the other 2, They have a Red body with black patches on them? (Calipos or something like that)
10 small ones again cant remember the name, they are tiny grey body with a red tail.

I will start to do the gravel clean more frequently rather than every 3 weeks.

Yes, what Kelly said. I have a tank of a similar size and have just 2 goldfish in it - could probably go upto 3. Also I have double the recommended filtration (2 Fluval 4 Pluses), and even with that and weekly water changes, wouldn;t go over 3 fishies. Also you really need to quarantine them in a separate tank when you get new fish. 'Trusted source' isn;t good enough - some shops have systems where the same water goes through all the tanks so even if you buy apparently healthy fish from one tank, they can already be infected if someone is ill in another...

White spot's the least problem. You could be introducing anything to your tank with new fish. Also beware of medicating for no reason - it can weaken healthy fish. If you quarantine your newbies, you can just see what develops then medicate. If you quarantine in future you don't need to medicate - unless the new fish start to become ill. Around a month's quarantine is long enough for most thigns to show up and even then, I'd salt the tank at the lowest % for a while after introducing new fish.

A white spot treatment can also throw out your tank's cycle - so putting toxins in the water and reducing oxygen at the precise moment (overloading with fish) you need it to be perfect. Plus it doesn't even address other possible problems.

Have you tried Melafix and Pimafix? They are good for some bacterial problems - whichever seems most appropriate - - also using aquarium salt (follow the instructions VERY carefully!) might do no harm if you want to try and save your survivors. I'd also buy another filter and an air-stone thing and pump to get more oxygen in there, if poss.

Those symptoms could be anything but given how many fish you had and still have - I'd suspect ammonia poisoning and/or not enough oxygen in there. Your white spot treatment probably 'killed' the filter too, meaning it can no longer cope with ammonia in the water at the precise point you're adding way more ammonia (invisible - fish excrete it through their gills). I'd also get my own ammonia testing kit and follow the instructions carefully - I wouldn't trust a shop 'testing' my water. Esp if they sold me the fish and have it in their interests to claim the water is fine, so they can sell me replacements. The test tube tests are way more accurate than strips. Even a few parts per million of ammonia in your water (which may still look perfect and clean) is enough to kill fish.

BTW should add, the water changes - I'd do one every day or every other day til you have the situation under control.

Thanks for both for your help and suggestions

I has sort of guessed I had added to many fish to the tank.

I will add another air stone to the tank.

I cut the white spot treatment - This was recommended by the store!!

I will be doing daily part water changes until under control.

Should I change the filter pads?

Just added an Air curtain rather than a stone. Water seems to have more bubbles in it now,

agree with all of the above, too many fish, this problem wont go away. i have 2 black moors, 1 is over 7" and the other is coming up for 7", they grow very large. all of your goldfish will do. you should rehome all but your 3 favourites, or upgrade your tank. the fish will become stunted and die early deaths if you dont.

the other fish you are talking about are calicos. your 6 goldfish alone is double what your tank will safely hold for life. that combined with water changes every 3 weeks (should be more like every other day with that stocking, even when your problems are sorted) its no wonder your fish are struggling. just think, those goldfish when full grown have the ability to reach 12", chances are they would only make 8-10" but they are very bulky fish with high bio-loads.

the school of 10 smaller fish, are they white cloud mountain minnows?
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fishimage...ain_minnow.jpg

these are fine in cooler water but when the goldfish do grow they may well end up as snacks.

adding more air stones wont really do much. yes it will help with the oxygen requirements of the fish, but the ammonia will be high which will be damaging their gills. even if you have huge filtration on your tank, the nitrates will remain high with the big bio-load and this too will harm your fish, hence the need for regular water changes.

dont swap out you filter media, there is no reason to swap it out ever, unless it is literally falling apart. all this does is put more cash in the companies pockets (hence them saying it needs changing) and damage your nitrifying bacteria colony as most of it will live in your filter media.

That is absolutely right. I haven't changed my filter sponges for a few years now - and when I do wash em out (which is rare cos my filters never clog), I do it in old tank water during a water change.

By the way don't be tempted into being reliant on Ammo- Lock or similar - these are short term solutions to immediate problems and as Kelly says the ammonia won't go away - with that load on your tank, it's constantly being added to!

I'd be tempted to get the small fish back to the shop and maybe get a second tank and split your survivors into 2 groups. If you need to set up a new tank quickly, use part of the filter medium from your existing tank. You may not need to medicate (just use Aquarium salts and/or Melafix) if you can do this. You might still lose some even if you do all this - as they have been stressed. But you might get lucky.

One rule of thumb for coldwater fish is 1 fish = a MINIMUM of 10 gallons of water. And even that is probably not enough as fish get larger. Goldfish are notoriously mucky things, as fish go.

Good luck with it - I think you'll only manage to keep all/most of the 6 if you act fast, now.

the school of 10 smaller fish, are they white cloud mountain minnows?
http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fishimage...ain_minnow.jpg

Thats the ones I mean yeah...

Hi madness

On top of the excellent advice offered by Kelly & Hogzilla, you need to go & buy your own test kit. Do not rely on other people testing the water for you. You need access to a kit 24/7 & there are too many variables with other people testing it for you. Did they rinse the tubes properly, is the test in date, did they perform the test exactly as prescribed not to mention the fact that the water parameters will change by the time you get to the shop & carry out the test.

Don't bother with dipstick type tests they are notoriously unreliable & do not test for the most important parameter, ammonia.

Get either the API Freshwater Master, or Nutrafin Mini Master. Both are liquid based drop test kits & the most accurate available to the domestic consumer.

The fish symptoms sound like ammonia poisoning so the 1st thing to do is carry out a huge 75% water change & stop feeding the fish altogether. Ammonia will kill them long before they starve do death. Be sure to temperature match the water before adding it to the tank, using the prescribed dose of dechlorinator of course.

The sudden increase in stock has led to the filter being unable to cope with the new bioload & it will take time to catch up.

The overstocking can be dealt with later, important thing right now is saving the fish.

Avoid any shop that advises to treat for white spot when there are no symptoms. People don't take paracetamol "in case" they get a head ache.

What treatment did you use, it is possible it has killed off the bacteria colonising the filter media.

Who ever told me fish were easy to keep!! Ha...

Onto it now. Will set up another tank and split them. A m8 has a spare one.

Thanks again.

King British White Spot Control.

Once I have split them, I will do the 75% Water change.

They are easy, once everything is set up It's an expensive initial outlay to do it properly, but once the tank is set up, cycled & stocked it is a cheap pastime & simple to maintain.

Just keep changing at least 50% of the water everyday & don't feed them until you have access to a test kit & can carry out the tests yourself. They will happily live 2-4 weeks without food. Ammonia however will kill them in days.

Try to raise the filter (or lower the water level of the tank) so that it is disturbing the surface of the water. This will increase aeration as ammonia makes it difficult for them to breathe. Leave the airline in as it will also increase aeration.

For now the 2 blackmoors have been seperated. Into a 20ltr tank.

Bout to do a 50% Water change. On the main tank.

Test kit on order should take a few days to arrive,

After I done a 25% water change yesterday one of the blow eyed goldfish have jumped bk into action. Time will tell. I have tried.

However I have learnt a lot in 12 months and I'm happy I have not had many deaths until recently!!

You've done your best and that's great. It's not your fault - the pet shops knowingly give out misinformation re. tank size etc. I was clueless when I started - had to learn it all from the interweb! (My son came home froma friend's house with 2 goldfish friend's mum had let them win at the fair! I knew zero about keeping fish alive and made some massive mistakes!)

This is not going to be a popular opinion, but oh well.

20L for 2 fantails is chronic. I mean seriously chronic. They need double that each, regardless of their current size. You will not be able to maintain the water in any respect. You will need to change 100% of it every single day. The filter will not cope with their waste.

It is not the pet shops responsibility to educate people on how to keep fish any more than it is a car showrooms duty to teach you how to drive. It is now an criminal offence under the animal welfare act to fail to provide adequate care & accommodation for any pet you take home. It is your responsibility to research the species before making rash decisions that will impact the health the of the species you choose to keep.

Return these fish to the shop where you bought them or buy a new tank 100L minimum.

I don't care about your "feelings" & I have no intention to pander to you. I care about the fish you are now subjecting to abject hell & their imminent slow, painful demise.

Take them back. Research the needs for fan tailed goldfish. Buy them an adequate home & filtration & all the equipment required for the fish to thrive.

I have nothing further to add.

well said

Well that told me, However in the mean time since yesterday.

My tank has now been replaced with one the double its original size.

The pump has been replaced and there is now the air curtain allowing more oxygen into the tank.

The filters being used are Flumal 3 plus.

I have had no more deaths. In fact they seem now to be more alert.

The white cloud mountain minnows have now being kept separate in the 20ltr Tank.

** RubusRoo you said yesterday "The overstocking can be dealt with later, important thing right now is saving the fish."

Which I now believe I have taken the needed action to do so.

Ok! I made a mistake and that is why I asked for yourselves for advice, Not a legal debate.

There is no such License in keeping fish therefore by asking the Pet shops who specialise in fish I believed I was asking the experts.

Hello! I'm new here, and another avid goldfish keeper. Just wanted to add my tuppence worth if that's ok.

While 40 litres is certainly better than 20 litres, it is still really way to small. I have 4 in a 160 litres and I think this is too small!

Can I ask how big your original tank is please and how many fish it currently houses? You need to be aiming for a minimum of 40 litres per goldfish, starting from a minimum of 100 litres. I'm stressing minimum because goldfish are so very messy! They require space to swim around as they should be very active and a lot of volume of water to dilute their waste. Really, an adult goldfish shouldn't physically fit in a 20 litre tank and certainly wouldn't be able to swim around freely. My 1 year old fantail is edging 5 inches now not including tail.

Also, WCMM while small are very active fish. I wouldn't keep them in anything less than a 60 litre tank personally.

When people are giving out advice, if it seems harsh or a little direct, it is because first and foremost they have the fish's best interests at heart. We've all had rubbish advice from pet shops, I started out as a terrible fishkeeper. The important thing is to learn from the good advice. I'm glad you haven't had any more deaths, but really saying things like 'I haven't had many deaths in 12 months' doesn't sit right with me. Goldfish can live for more than 10 years, often a lot longer. I really hope you're taking on board the excellent advice already given out here.

Check out your local ad paper, sites etc for bargain tanks. Big 2nd hand tanks often come up for sale at low prices.

And I hope I haven't overstepped the mark on my first post!

I think the pet shops ARE at fault, though. They sell things like those Bi-orbs and similar, tiny little tanks - there's no need for that stuff even to be on sale, in this country. Then there's the issue of their water quality 'tests', etc. All of it misinformation - disinformation which people take in good faith. Almost NO info about cycling or doing a fishless cycle - for obvious commercial reasons...

These issues are at the root of the welfare problems, and should also be tackled alongside educating would-be fishkeepers better re the 10 gall per fish rule (and I misread that 20L as 20 G btw!) Even so - I think the industry around selling fish needs to be dealt with as it's at the root of the problem when it comes to welfare issues. If someone comes here or anywhere similar go online for help and I can help them (not insult them), I'll do so - for the sake of the livestock, but also hopefully one more informed person will be out there and ultimately doing this same thing. OP came on here to ask for help and kudos to them for doing that, beause not just their fish but others who stumble on this, will be helped. Better to create an atmosphere where people can be helped constructively - not lambasted, surely? That way, ultimately, more fish (and other animals) will have their welfare taken care of.

The information is deliberately obfuscated by those with commercial interests. OP wasn't given good information to start off with. That is not their fault, and at least they came here and asked for some advice rather than watch more fish die.

i can see it from both sides. i do think that as long as more and more of us spread the proper fish keeping ways, it will soon become common knowledge. its the ignorant people who dont want to listen who will cause suffering to their wet pets.

all pet shops i go to list the adult size of the goldfish they sell as 12" for fancies and 18" for commons. even so, many people will point to the tags, and say they want x number of these fish, and are putting them in a small tank. it makes me wonder if they would house a rabbit in a hamster cage

it wasnt long ago it was accepted rabbits could be housed with guinea pigs, and by word of mouth its now known they should be housed separately, so IMO it wont take too long for it to spread that goldfish are large messy fish in need of big aquariums and huge filtration.

i guess we shouldnt jump on people for asking for help, its these people who will then spread the word about how they did it wrong to start with.

good on you OP for correcting you big mistakes, your fish will no doubt live a long and happy life from now on

Hello,

Could be any of the following :

5) Vibriosis - Can effect all fish - Lethargy, skin discoloration, exophthalmia, reddish staining of the fins, abdominal swelling. Spread fast and can cause rapid mortility. Caused by Vibrio bacteria.

Medicated food may help contain an outbreak. Good quarantine practice and water qualirt management will help prevent outbreak.

6) Pseudomonasis - All Fish - Results from infection by Pseudomonos bacteria. May result in haemorrhages in the mouth and ulceration on sides of body. Small haemorrhages can occur internally, affecting the liver and kidneys. ( Treatment is difficult. Treat with injection or medical food.

9) Lymphocystis - All fish - The most common viral disease, resulting in cauliflower-like growths over the body surface and white areas around the eys. May sometimes develop internally. - Treatment - vaccination.

10 )Iridvirus - Many fish especially gouramis, angelfish, and cichlids. - Weakness - Loss of appetite, and darkening in colour. The abdomen might be visibly distended, indicating an enlarged spleen. No effective treatment

11) Singapore angel disease ( Not relevant )

23 )Other poisoning - All fish - Fish swimmnig in circles - clamped fins - mild distress to sudden death - Run carbon filter. Carry out major w/change. Move fish out of enviroment, Remove source of contamination

24) attack by other tank mate. Injured fish appear on surface of water. Often noticed in the morning. - Move individual to dif tank to recover. Treat with fungal and anti bacterial agent.

Hope this helps.

p.s - Now I need a rest.

All the fish have been moved to larger tanks, double the original size. When I next do a change, later today I will count the amount of Litres going into it.

The 2 stunned fish which I thought were on the way out are now swimming around happily. Instead of just sitting at the bottom of the tank waiting for death!!

I lost 3 fish in 2 weeks and 1 last yr (Swim Bladder infection - Was swimming upside down, on its side.. etc)

4 fish in 15 months really is not that bad.

No more fish are going into the tank!!!

Again thanks for your advice, maybe others will read this post for support and learn by there mistakes.

Measure the tank in cm

(length x depth x height)/1000 = volume in litres

If my sums are correct. I make the upgraded tank 98 Litres.