It was all a bit'Bill and Ted' wasn't it? 
Amy & Rory Waving To Themselves
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Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“My memory of the first two is hazy, but I think all of them are very different scenarios to what we've just seen, as are different incarnations of the Doctor meeting each other.
My issue is with companions waiting in "real time" to revisit scenarios that they've already experienced just on a whim, and presumably watching them happen again, which is what we seemed to be seeing here.
I'm sorry but you just don't do that sort of thing in time travel stories. Suspension of disbelief becomes impossible if you do.
Just because it's the only time so far that they could have done it doesn't make it make sense.
Rose waiting in "real time" to see herself and the Doctor saving the 2012 Olympics would be exactly the same, and just as silly.
If it's all rationally explained later I will be delighted.
Perhaps I'm taking this all too seriously, I need a lie down........
”
“My memory of the first two is hazy, but I think all of them are very different scenarios to what we've just seen, as are different incarnations of the Doctor meeting each other.
My issue is with companions waiting in "real time" to revisit scenarios that they've already experienced just on a whim, and presumably watching them happen again, which is what we seemed to be seeing here.
I'm sorry but you just don't do that sort of thing in time travel stories. Suspension of disbelief becomes impossible if you do.
Just because it's the only time so far that they could have done it doesn't make it make sense.
Rose waiting in "real time" to see herself and the Doctor saving the 2012 Olympics would be exactly the same, and just as silly.
If it's all rationally explained later I will be delighted.
Perhaps I'm taking this all too seriously, I need a lie down........
”
You're telling me if you timetravelled to ten years in the future, then returned to your own time, that in ten years' time you wouldn't be the slightest bit interested to see if it still all played out like you remembered?
Originally Posted by amos_brearley:
“You're telling me if you timetravelled to ten years in the future, then returned to your own time, that in ten years' time you wouldn't be the slightest bit interested to see if it still all played out like you remembered?”
“You're telling me if you timetravelled to ten years in the future, then returned to your own time, that in ten years' time you wouldn't be the slightest bit interested to see if it still all played out like you remembered?”
Of course I would be interested!
That doesn't mean I should be seen to be doing it though!
As I said, this is something that should never be shown in time travel fantasies, as it makes suspension of disbelief impossible, setting up all sort of unresolvable time loops at very least.
Perhaps they were trying to warn the doctor of something but couldn't because of the force field was stopping them from getting closer.
Maybe, but the force field wasn't there when we saw them of course, and if they knew what was going to happen........
Well, perhaps they knew that they shouldn't do anything to change the course of events!
My brain's starting to hurt again......
As I've always maintained, I really, really hope that this apparent big anomaly will be properly explained next episode.
Another slight problem thrown up by this of course is that Amy and Rory should be at least a bit confident that they're going to survive this, as they've seen themselves apparently still alive ten years in the future having gone back there ten years after it was all over! At least that's what we were led to assume........
Amy has been separated from the others of course, but Rory also apparently hasn't mentioned this obvious assumption to the Doctor, which is rather less than convincing.
Well, perhaps they knew that they shouldn't do anything to change the course of events!
My brain's starting to hurt again......
As I've always maintained, I really, really hope that this apparent big anomaly will be properly explained next episode.
Another slight problem thrown up by this of course is that Amy and Rory should be at least a bit confident that they're going to survive this, as they've seen themselves apparently still alive ten years in the future having gone back there ten years after it was all over! At least that's what we were led to assume........
Amy has been separated from the others of course, but Rory also apparently hasn't mentioned this obvious assumption to the Doctor, which is rather less than convincing.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“As I said, this is something that should never be shown in time travel fantasies, as it makes suspension of disbelief impossible, setting up all sort of unresolvable time loops at very least.”
“As I said, this is something that should never be shown in time travel fantasies, as it makes suspension of disbelief impossible, setting up all sort of unresolvable time loops at very least.
”
Don't tell the guys who made Back to the Future 1,2 & 3.
Anyone think the Doctor was fibbing about it being both Amy and Rory? I mean, he didn't really offer them a look with the binoculars.
Purely speculation obviously, but could Amy be back at the village with someone else to visit Rory's grave?? Perhaps he's buried there?! Perhaps even in the now empty grave he was standing in???
Would explain why this particular place would be worth re-visiting in the future...
The concequences of this timeline could be re-written anyway later on.
Would be an interesting turn
Purely speculation obviously, but could Amy be back at the village with someone else to visit Rory's grave?? Perhaps he's buried there?! Perhaps even in the now empty grave he was standing in???
Would explain why this particular place would be worth re-visiting in the future...
The concequences of this timeline could be re-written anyway later on.
Would be an interesting turn
strangely.. if it was amy and rory, why was there all the speculation as to whether the doctor would save amy? cos if she was standing there, he would have had to have saved her, right?
Seems unlikely they were just tourists at their own "past future" and were actually there with more significant purpose.
Perhaps they were trying to send a warning, or perhaps they are the Deus ex Machina for the resolution of Part II.
Either way they are 'Chekhov's Gun' and not just a throwaway line, that is certain.
Perhaps they were trying to send a warning, or perhaps they are the Deus ex Machina for the resolution of Part II.
Either way they are 'Chekhov's Gun' and not just a throwaway line, that is certain.
I have absolutely no idea why revisiting your past glories would involve any sort of paradox or time loop or anything. It's pretty much a trope used in any time travel scenario eventually.
Such as: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibxLxM6V2Yv (skip to 8.18)
Edit: oh, or Back the the Future 2!
Such as: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibxLxM6V2Yv (skip to 8.18)
Edit: oh, or Back the the Future 2!
Originally Posted by allen_who:
“Well I think it was quite a clever idea. You have to bear in mind that the scene where amy is swallowed up by the ground could be a bit distressing for younger viewers... So by showing them waving at themselves 10 years in the future then you are basically being told Amy will be okay”
“Well I think it was quite a clever idea. You have to bear in mind that the scene where amy is swallowed up by the ground could be a bit distressing for younger viewers... So by showing them waving at themselves 10 years in the future then you are basically being told Amy will be okay
”
I've got bad news for you. I fully suspect that the future Amy and Rory are there to make you think that everything's going to be okay and everyone is fine in their future. But now, time can be rewritten...
I expect to see a Back to the Future style of 'fading from existence' effect next week.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Was I the only one absolutely horrified by that?”
“Was I the only one absolutely horrified by that?”
No, I absolutely love when future episodes are referenced. It shows that the writers aren’t just making it up as they go along.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“it throws up so many paradoxes, anomalies and inconsistencies that my head hurts just trying to think about it!”
“it throws up so many paradoxes, anomalies and inconsistencies that my head hurts just trying to think about it!”
The whole series is one big paradox and inconsistency! Consider:[LIST][*]Every time the Doctor travels to a new time, it seems the universe is at stake, yet it wasn’t when he was in the future a few episodes previous.[*]The Doctor is apparently the “last of his species”, but he’s a time-traveller so that doesn’t make sense. If he goes back to a time when they did exist then he’s not the last. And if the Timelords were time travellers, presumably at least one of them has travelled to the future, meaning they will appear at that point in the future.[*]The Doctor keeps bumping into his old enemies, then destroying them. Despite all his (and their) travelling through time, he and they always seem to be the corresponding versions of themselves. He never bumps into the Daleks, say, of the Pertwee era. Only the latest ones.[*]Many of the Doctor’s enemies can apparently time-travel, which in reality would make them almost unstoppable. They need only to travel back to a point before one of their battles with the Doctor and they would have a complete advantage over the situation.[/LIST]These things shouldn’t be worried about because it’s a TV series!
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Unless this is explored further and/or explained later in the series, I feel this is a bad error of judgement by the writers.”
“Unless this is explored further and/or explained later in the series, I feel this is a bad error of judgement by the writers.”
You really think they would be putting in these appearances from future versions of Doctor/Amy/Rory just for a laugh, and not for the story?
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“It was probably intended just to be a throwaway joke”
“It was probably intended just to be a throwaway joke”
Highly doubtful. I’m surprised anyone could think that, given this year’s series story arc is all about time-travel.
Originally Posted by Larry1971:
“did seem a totally pointless sene to me.”
“did seem a totally pointless sene to me.”
Bear in mind that several things so far this series have not made sense. Clearly we’re going to have to wait until the final episode (or longer) before we know exactly what’s going on.
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“I've got bad news for you. I fully suspect that the future Amy and Rory are there to make you think that everything's going to be okay and everyone is fine in their future. But now, time can be rewritten...
I expect to see a Back to the Future style of 'fading from existence' effect next week.”
“I've got bad news for you. I fully suspect that the future Amy and Rory are there to make you think that everything's going to be okay and everyone is fine in their future. But now, time can be rewritten...
I expect to see a Back to the Future style of 'fading from existence' effect next week.”
We'll see.
I actually hope that or something very similar does happen!
BTW I'm well aware that this has all been done before, in "Back To The Future", "Bill and Ted" etc., but it somehow doesn't worry me there, as the whole premise of the stories relied on it in those cases, and certainly in the latter it was being played for laughs anyway.
This incident in THE seemed to be just an isolated throwaway however, unnecessary and unjustified, but I'm quite prepared to be proved embarrassingly wrong on Saturday!
The humble pie is in the freezer ready to be defrosted when needed!
as i've just posted on the 'doctors jacket/angels scene thread, i'm sure this might be a clue or a hint to The Doctor having to travel back in his own timeline..
Originally Posted by Grand Dizzy:
“You really think they would be putting in these appearances from future versions of Doctor/Amy/Rory just for a laugh, and not for the story?”
“You really think they would be putting in these appearances from future versions of Doctor/Amy/Rory just for a laugh, and not for the story?”
That is what I'm afraid of!
I actually really hope it's not true.
I don't dispute any of your other comments GD, I just think that this particular incident was just going that little bit too far, unless it was done for a very good reason.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“I don't dispute any of your other comments GD, I just think that this particular incident was just going that little bit too far, unless it was done for a very good reason.
”
“I don't dispute any of your other comments GD, I just think that this particular incident was just going that little bit too far, unless it was done for a very good reason.
”
I’d put good money on it being done for a good reason.
Originally Posted by Grand Dizzy:
“I’d put good money on it being done for a good reason.”
“I’d put good money on it being done for a good reason.”
Well, I'm not taking any bets, because despite what I've said I do still have a lot of faith in Steven Moffat to deliver a satisfactory resolution to all this!
You can watch me choke on my humble pie though!
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“I've got bad news for you. I fully suspect that the future Amy and Rory are there to make you think that everything's going to be okay and everyone is fine in their future. But now, time can be rewritten...
I expect to see a Back to the Future style of 'fading from existence' effect next week.”
“I've got bad news for you. I fully suspect that the future Amy and Rory are there to make you think that everything's going to be okay and everyone is fine in their future. But now, time can be rewritten...
I expect to see a Back to the Future style of 'fading from existence' effect next week.”
This would be good news for me to be honest. For no other reason than I really love twists in stories
I'm sure it was done for a reason - as Phil solo posted, it's a Checkovs' Gun
I'm reminded of the end of "Smith and Jones" though - where the Doctor crosses his own time line to do the trick with his tie for Martha:
"Crossing into established events is strictly forbidden — except for cheap tricks"
I'm reminded of the end of "Smith and Jones" though - where the Doctor crosses his own time line to do the trick with his tie for Martha:
"Crossing into established events is strictly forbidden — except for cheap tricks"
Originally Posted by Grand Dizzy:
“[*]The Doctor is apparently the “last of his species”, but he’s a time-traveller so that doesn’t make sense. If he goes back to a time when they did exist then he’s not the last. And if the Timelords were time travellers, presumably at least one of them has travelled to the future, meaning they will appear at that point in the future.”
“[*]The Doctor is apparently the “last of his species”, but he’s a time-traveller so that doesn’t make sense. If he goes back to a time when they did exist then he’s not the last. And if the Timelords were time travellers, presumably at least one of them has travelled to the future, meaning they will appear at that point in the future.”
It makes perfect sense. The Time Lords are dead in the Doctor's present, a trip to the past doesn't change that. A dead Time Lord who travelled to future when he was alive is still a dead Time Lord in the Doctor's present.
Quote:
“The Doctor keeps bumping into his old enemies, then destroying them. Despite all his (and their) travelling through time, he and they always seem to be the corresponding versions of themselves. He never bumps into the Daleks, say, of the Pertwee era. Only the latest ones.”
“The Doctor keeps bumping into his old enemies, then destroying them. Despite all his (and their) travelling through time, he and they always seem to be the corresponding versions of themselves. He never bumps into the Daleks, say, of the Pertwee era. Only the latest ones.”
Sometimes the order is different. The Daleks in the Dalek Invasion of Earth are from a time before the ones in The Daleks. He's just met Silurians in 2020 - that's after meeting them in 2084 and he was always meeting the Cybermen in the wrong order. From the Cyberman point-of-view they met the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Doctor's before the Fourth.
Quote:
“Many of the Doctor’s enemies can apparently time-travel, which in reality would make them almost unstoppable. They need only to travel back to a point before one of their battles with the Doctor and they would have a complete advantage over the situation.”
“Many of the Doctor’s enemies can apparently time-travel, which in reality would make them almost unstoppable. They need only to travel back to a point before one of their battles with the Doctor and they would have a complete advantage over the situation.”
That would create a paradox. If they go back to just before the Doctor defeated them and stop him they won't be defeated by the Doctor in the first place. That means they won't go back to stop him which means he will defeat them. So that means they will go back.... it never ends and has no solution and that's why paradoxes are impossible.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“That is what I'm afraid of!
I actually really hope it's not true.
I don't dispute any of your other comments GD, I just think that this particular incident was just going that little bit too far, unless it was done for a very good reason.
”
“That is what I'm afraid of!
I actually really hope it's not true.
I don't dispute any of your other comments GD, I just think that this particular incident was just going that little bit too far, unless it was done for a very good reason.
”
They had to cut 20 minutes from the epsiode (inc some talk of future Amy/Rory) as it was. The future Amy/Rory scene would have been part of this cut if it was just there for a thowaway gag.
Originally Posted by Dave-H:
“Was I the only one absolutely horrified by that?
Unless this is explored further and/or explained later in the series, I feel this is a bad error of judgement by the writers.
”
“Was I the only one absolutely horrified by that?
Unless this is explored further and/or explained later in the series, I feel this is a bad error of judgement by the writers.
”
"Absolutely horrified" by a 3 second scene of a fantasy kids show? Not sex, not murder, not mindless violence, just two people waving at their future/past selves. Nothing more.
Such casual misuse of the English language leaves me "totally devastated".
Originally Posted by Dorabella14:
“"Absolutely horrified" by a 3 second scene of a fantasy kids show? Not sex, not murder, not mindless violence, just two people waving at their future/past selves. Nothing more.
Such casual misuse of the English language leaves me "totally devastated".”
“"Absolutely horrified" by a 3 second scene of a fantasy kids show? Not sex, not murder, not mindless violence, just two people waving at their future/past selves. Nothing more.
Such casual misuse of the English language leaves me "totally devastated".”
If you'd read all of the first page of this thread you would have seen that I've already been taken to task for my poor choice of words, and have unreservedly apologised for this.
It was a bad misjudgement, especially as I myself particularly dislike the casual use of the word "tragedy" often banded about in the press and elsewhere. Someone dying needlessly is a tragedy, something like a football team losing a match is not.
Sorry I fell into the same trap.
Originally Posted by Corwin:
“They had to cut 20 minutes from the epsiode (inc some talk of future Amy/Rory) as it was. The future Amy/Rory scene would have been part of this cut if it was just there for a thowaway gag.”
“They had to cut 20 minutes from the epsiode (inc some talk of future Amy/Rory) as it was. The future Amy/Rory scene would have been part of this cut if it was just there for a thowaway gag.”
Yes indeed it should have been cut if it didn't have a greater significance. As I've said, I still hope that it has.
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