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Old 01-06-2010, 12:41
miles19740
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you are deluded . ive told you all along that the vast majority of music lovers HATE their nursery rhyme, mass produced track. (again the use of single tense was deliberate). they appealed to children and a certain section of gay people (mainly young, older gay people i knew at the time prefered more sophisticated acts like erasure and the pet shop boys). outside that demograph they had very very few people who liked even 1 track (from 87 onwards).

waterman produced a bog standard s/a/w track for eurovision. europe flatly rejected it. that is evidence for how much he/they are hated . if 'millions' like them like you claim, the result would have been much different.



yeah? like what?... have any been nominated for any songwriting awards? recognition for being musically 'good'?, any critical acclaim? breaking and boundaries? (like madonna was at the time), cited by anyone as influencial? hell they didnt even sell much! they were 'kiddy pop', music ten year old girls liked. kylies early material was ok pop at best ... 'amazing'? lol.. not!
And your evidence for such negativity towards SAW...or is that just your opinion?

You cannot deny that for nearly a decade, they were massive. All this rubbish about low sales, it is all relative. Don't be giving all this, "it was easier to get number 1s", because it wasn't. Everything is relative. If it was easy, then it was easy for everyone. The difference is, more people bought and liked SAW music than other artists...fact!
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Old 01-06-2010, 13:46
Biko
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The difference is, more people bought and liked SAW music than other artists...fact!
well they obviously don't now
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Old 01-06-2010, 14:58
mushymanrob
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And your evidence for such negativity towards SAW...or is that just your opinion?

You cannot deny that for nearly a decade, they were massive. All this rubbish about low sales, it is all relative. Don't be giving all this, "it was easier to get number 1s", because it wasn't. Everything is relative. If it was easy, then it was easy for everyone. The difference is, more people bought and liked SAW music than other artists...fact!
opinion based on everybody elses opinion i speak to and did back then! like i said... girls n certain gay guys like s/a/w, us adults HATED them.

here we go again... 'nearly a decade they were massive'... NO THEY WERE NOT! they had a couple of years when they kept releasing the same backing track with some created 'artiste' 'singing' over it.. the top ten selling records from 88 and 89, (20 in all) saw had 3!!!! dominant is something the beatles did, or t rex, slade, duran duran..

saw got their foot in the door because record sales were slumping due to the punk generation growing up and buying albums. every so often in music theres a generational shift and a generation turn away from the commercial singles chart.

the beatles/merseybeat in the 60's 'ousted' the rock n rollers
the 60's generation grew up and the glam rock invasion took place as a new, young generation claimed the charts for their music. same happened with punk after the glamrockers 'grew out of chart material'. it was when the punk/new romantic generation of the late 70's / early 80's turned their backs on chart music that a new generation got their chance. the charts in 87-8 were full of indie, rock, house, so when s/a/w gave children an alternative, they took it!

people were still buying music, just not singles, getting a 'hit' at a time when you only needed eg 10,000 sales to get a #1 IS a damn site easier then when you needed 50,000 (figures used are for example).

your last line is utter nonsense... more people DIDNT buy s/a/w then anyone else, and they only figure with rick astley in the top 100 sellers of all time. hardly 'domineering' lol.

but your over inflated, delusional view of s/a/w does you not credit. you were in their target audience, you were in that demograph, but outside that they were nothing... but a horrible little irritation. ooh look, pretty much what people think of waterman now! lol.
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Old 01-06-2010, 15:04
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well they obviously don't now
they didnt then either, thats just a 'fact' he created.... like the one where he reckons hot chocolate created disco... or s/a/w were the pioneers of british based hi nrg (totally overlooking the vastly more successful and infinately more respected frankie goes to hollywood), or s/a/w created dance music
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Old 01-06-2010, 15:32
miles19740
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opinion based on everybody elses opinion i speak to and did back then! like i said... girls n certain gay guys like s/a/w, us adults HATED them.

here we go again... 'nearly a decade they were massive'... NO THEY WERE NOT! they had a couple of years when they kept releasing the same backing track with some created 'artiste' 'singing' over it.. the top ten selling records from 88 and 89, (20 in all) saw had 3!!!! dominant is something the beatles did, or t rex, slade, duran duran..

saw got their foot in the door because record sales were slumping due to the punk generation growing up and buying albums. every so often in music theres a generational shift and a generation turn away from the commercial singles chart.

the beatles/merseybeat in the 60's 'ousted' the rock n rollers
the 60's generation grew up and the glam rock invasion took place as a new, young generation claimed the charts for their music. same happened with punk after the glamrockers 'grew out of chart material'. it was when the punk/new romantic generation of the late 70's / early 80's turned their backs on chart music that a new generation got their chance. the charts in 87-8 were full of indie, rock, house, so when s/a/w gave children an alternative, they took it!

people were still buying music, just not singles, getting a 'hit' at a time when you only needed eg 10,000 sales to get a #1 IS a damn site easier then when you needed 50,000 (figures used are for example).

your last line is utter nonsense... more people DIDNT buy s/a/w then anyone else, and they only figure with rick astley in the top 100 sellers of all time. hardly 'domineering' lol.

but your over inflated, delusional view of s/a/w does you not credit. you were in their target audience, you were in that demograph, but outside that they were nothing... but a horrible little irritation. ooh look, pretty much what people think of waterman now! lol.
In your opinion only...
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Old 01-06-2010, 15:33
miles19740
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they didnt then either, thats just a 'fact' he created.... like the one where he reckons hot chocolate created disco... or s/a/w were the pioneers of british based hi nrg (totally overlooking the vastly more successful and infinately more respected frankie goes to hollywood), or s/a/w created dance music
I think we will have to agree to disagree. You don't want to accept that they were successful back in the day, a success which many singers and bands can only dream about...oh and Kylie's first album sold 2.1 million copies...more than Madonna's True and many of Robbie's albums.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:42
JDD93
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can someone post the Eurovision Thread link as i cant find it
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:45
mushymanrob
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In your opinion only...
not so!!!!!!!!! just look at the criticism watermans got on this board... outside his narrow fan base he simply isnt liked nor respected.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:03
AndyB2007
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I think we will have to agree to disagree. You don't want to accept that they were successful back in the day, a success which many singers and bands can only dream about...oh and Kylie's first album sold 2.1 million copies...more than Madonna's True and many of Robbie's albums.
Thing is Madonna and Robbie are still around.

Apart from Kylie, what about all the other SAW artists? I doubt they've been around for as long as Madonna or Robbie- Sonia's career was short-lived, as was Big Fun, Pat and Mick, Michaela Strachan, Sinitta, Reynolds Girls, etc.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:04
AndyB2007
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they didnt then either, thats just a 'fact' he created.... like the one where he reckons hot chocolate created disco... or s/a/w were the pioneers of british based hi nrg (totally overlooking the vastly more successful and infinately more respected frankie goes to hollywood), or s/a/w created dance music
SAW created dance music?

What about Farley Jackmaster Funk, Frankie Knuckles, David Morales and Steve Hurley?
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:05
mushymanrob
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I think we will have to agree to disagree. You don't want to accept that they were successful back in the day, a success which many singers and bands can only dream about...oh and Kylie's first album sold 2.1 million copies...more than Madonna's True and many of Robbie's albums.
i accept they had a degree of success... but they were not dominant as you suggest, their artists bar kylie and astley sold bugger all. peruse old charts from 88 and 89 and youll see more indie in there then s/a/w, more house/dance, more rock...

heres a copy of the list of the best selling singles of the 80's... out of 100 s/a/w got just TWO entries... lol thats hardly 'dominant'
http://www.buzzjack.com/forums/index...howtopic=85041
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:06
AndyB2007
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i accept they had a degree of success... but they were not dominant as you suggest, their artists bar kylie and astley sold bugger all. peruse old charts from 88 and 89 and youll see more indie in there then s/a/w, more house/dance, more rock...

heres a copy of the list of the best selling singles of the 80's... out of 100 s/a/w got just TWO entries... lol thats hardly 'dominant'
http://www.buzzjack.com/forums/index...howtopic=85041
I've just written that Madonna and Robbie are still around,unlike the SAW artists (apart from really Kylie)
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:17
mushymanrob
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I've just written that Madonna and Robbie are still around,unlike the SAW artists (apart from really Kylie)
exactly, they are real artists, not some nonentity moulded for a cheap shot at making money... and lets face it ...thats all waterman is interested in.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:24
miles19740
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Thing is Madonna and Robbie are still around.

Apart from Kylie, what about all the other SAW artists? I doubt they've been around for as long as Madonna or Robbie- Sonia's career was short-lived, as was Big Fun, Pat and Mick, Michaela Strachan, Sinitta, Reynolds Girls, etc.
Sonia? Bananarama? Dead Or Alive?
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:25
miles19740
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exactly, they are real artists, not some nonentity moulded for a cheap shot at making money... and lets face it ...thats all waterman is interested in.
I think it is slightly naive to think that only some are in music for money and some aren't.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:25
*Slowpoke*
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can someone post the Eurovision Thread link as i cant find it
Are you looking for this thread
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...1268887&page=9 ?
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:27
AndyB2007
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exactly, they are real artists, not some nonentity moulded for a cheap shot at making money... and lets face it ...thats all waterman is interested in.
Stock and Aitken had Tracy Shaw (yes, Maxine off Coronation Street) on their roster back in 1998, and gave her a couple of their songs- Lonnie Gordon's Happening All Over Again and Ridin High, recorded by a singer I've never heard of called Serena- apparently it was No.1 in Brazil (well Corona were popular there, and the main female never sang- the vocals on Rhythm of the Night belong to someone else, as did Baby Baby's).

Needless to say, regardless of her role as Maxine Peacock, the UK record buying public paid no attention to her records nor to Stock or Aitken-despite a performance on This Morning, Happening All Over Again peaked at No.46, dropping out of the Top 75 the next week. Ridin High got no TV or radio airplay (it was naff anyway), so failed to chart.

I forgot, where is Tracy now?
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:35
AndyB2007
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Sonia? Bananarama? Dead Or Alive?
At least Banarama are still around as a duo.

And members of Dead or Alive are writing songs for other artists.

As for Sonia, where is she? Probably in Wentworth Detention Centre .
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:39
miles19740
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Stock and Aitken had Tracy Shaw (yes, Maxine off Coronation Street) on their roster back in 1998, and gave her a couple of their songs- Lonnie Gordon's Happening All Over Again and Ridin High, recorded by a singer I've never heard of called Serena- apparently it was No.1 in Brazil (well Corona were popular there, and the main female never sang- the vocals on Rhythm of the Night belong to someone else, as did Baby Baby's).

Needless to say, regardless of her role as Maxine Peacock, the UK record buying public paid no attention to her records nor to Stock or Aitken-despite a performance on This Morning, Happening All Over Again peaked at No.46, dropping out of the Top 75 the next week. Ridin High got no TV or radio airplay (it was naff anyway), so failed to chart.

I forgot, where is Tracy now?
And how successful was Lonnie Gordon with Happenin All Over Again?
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:52
mushymanrob
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And how successful was Lonnie Gordon with Happenin All Over Again?
not very...


dead or alive was pre- the hit factory, but were basically one hit wonders as non of their other hits are remembered...being rubbish

you cannot claim bananarama as they were only breifly with saw. they were already an established act.

that leaves us wiiiiittthhhh..... oh yeah, NO ONE!
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:59
mushymanrob
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right.. im bored enough to have done a little research.

ive gone through the top ten charts from 1988 and 1989 and catagorised the styles of hits. ok , its not a defining scientific experiment, but it IS a useful guide as to what was happening at the hight of the supposed s/a/w domination of the charts.

of the top ten hits

basic pop = 57%
soul/black music = 12%
dance/house/hip hop = 9%
s/a/w hits = 9%
'indie' = 15%
rock = 8%

so you can see, of the top ten hits over those 2 years. s/a/w were pretty irrelevant, hardly dominating anything.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:03
miles19740
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I suppose Pete Waterman's success with Steps between '97 and '01 was due to low record sales to!
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:05
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Thank you Red Blooded. They are indeed...as are many of their other hits they wrote for other artists. The joke is, too many people think they are too cool to admit to liking SAW's music. It is my belief that many people love their music, but choose not to admit to it.

All the SAW music lovers should come out! A massive shout out to you. Together, we fight the cause.
Old School Kylie tracks may be awesome but that dosne't make the eurovision song good because it just isn't, he hasn't written some decent songs but also some VERY bad ones.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:15
miles19740
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right.. im bored enough to have done a little research.

ive gone through the top ten charts from 1988 and 1989 and catagorised the styles of hits. ok , its not a defining scientific experiment, but it IS a useful guide as to what was happening at the hight of the supposed s/a/w domination of the charts.

of the top ten hits

basic pop = 57%
soul/black music = 12%
dance/house/hip hop = 9%
s/a/w hits = 9%
'indie' = 15%
rock = 8%

so you can see, of the top ten hits over those 2 years. s/a/w were pretty irrelevant, hardly dominating anything.
Well that is slightly interesting, however, for it to be fair, you have to compare like with like. You need to look at the producers and writers behind the hits as SAW were writers and producers. I will have to do a detailed analysis of the charts from '87-'89 looking at the writers and producers of each track that entered the top 10, counting each track once.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:26
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Lo and behold this thread has turned into another slanging match re SAW between miles and mushymanrob.

Miles I have stood up for you and still do re the fact SAW hits deserve credit, had you been at school during their peak, gay or straight, this is what you were listening to (OK minority was listening to the poodle perm so called heavy rock of the time). Also agree re SAW produced some excellent sales, and no, the downward trend of sales had nothing to do with SAW, sales went even lower a couple of years later in the faceless rave age.

However, on this occasion have to agree with Mushymanrob that Joshs song for Eurovision was rubbish Pete should have done much better.

Mushymanrob as stated before look at worldwide sales, as an example Dead Or Alives worldwide success continued way beyond their UK heyday. Since then Tim Lever and Mike Percy (left DOA 1990) have found even more success as writers in their own right for other artists.
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