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Old 01-06-2010, 23:02
mushymanrob
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I suppose Pete Waterman's success with Steps between '97 and '01 was due to low record sales to!
sorry... was that S/A/W or just watertwaaat? hmm.. ok i cannot deny that steps sold more then most s/a/w artists!

Well that is slightly interesting, however, for it to be fair, you have to compare like with like. You need to look at the producers and writers behind the hits as SAW were writers and producers. I will have to do a detailed analysis of the charts from '87-'89 looking at the writers and producers of each track that entered the top 10, counting each track once.
if you want to do it properly, then compare s/a/w against other pop styles... beat, glam, punk, ska/two tone, new romantic etc or other writing producers like mickey most. you will find that like for like s/a/w were nowhere near as successful as those.

mass producing the same track at a time of record low sales (then) doesnt make an accurate interpretation of how popular the music really was.

as my cursory experiment shows, s/a/w were bit part players, even at their peak. you can do as many investigations as you want to, but my quick and not perfect analysis isnt far from the absolute truth. you cannot create a statistic based on fact that will prove the s/a/w material 'dominated' the charts... many adults simply ignored that tripe.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:11
mushymanrob
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Lo and behold this thread has turned into another slanging match re SAW between miles and mushymanrob.

Miles I have stood up for you and still do re the fact SAW hits deserve credit, had you been at school during their peak, gay or straight, this is what you were listening to (OK minority was listening to the poodle perm so called heavy rock of the time). Also agree re SAW produced some excellent sales, and no, the downward trend of sales had nothing to do with SAW, sales went even lower a couple of years later in the faceless rave age.

However, on this occasion have to agree with Mushymanrob that Joshs song for Eurovision was rubbish Pete should have done much better.

Mushymanrob as stated before look at worldwide sales, as an example Dead Or Alives worldwide success continued way beyond their UK heyday. Since then Tim Lever and Mike Percy (left DOA 1990) have found even more success as writers in their own right for other artists.
EXACTLY! " if youd been at school"... nurseryrhyme pop for children!

but FACTUALLY they DIDNT produce any 'best sellers' with only 2 tracks in the top 100 of the 80's getting a mention... thats DIRE!

SINGLES sales did go down, but had nothing to do with 'rave' as rave was underground and not a mainstream commercial enterprise. s/a/w was all about making money, they were a totally commercial venture.

singles slaes have always been big at a time when the music was good. good pop = good sales... fact. if s/a/w were really that good then the record sales would reflect that, but they dont. fact.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:16
miles19740
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not very...


dead or alive was pre- the hit factory, but were basically one hit wonders as non of their other hits are remembered...being rubbish

you cannot claim bananarama as they were only breifly with saw. they were already an established act.

that leaves us wiiiiittthhhh..... oh yeah, NO ONE!
Dead or Alive recorded two albums with The Hit Factory and Bananarama recorded two and a half albums with The Hit Factory.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:30
miles19740
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Lo and behold this thread has turned into another slanging match re SAW between miles and mushymanrob.

Miles I have stood up for you and still do re the fact SAW hits deserve credit, had you been at school during their peak, gay or straight, this is what you were listening to (OK minority was listening to the poodle perm so called heavy rock of the time). Also agree re SAW produced some excellent sales, and no, the downward trend of sales had nothing to do with SAW, sales went even lower a couple of years later in the faceless rave age.

However, on this occasion have to agree with Mushymanrob that Joshs song for Eurovision was rubbish Pete should have done much better.

Mushymanrob as stated before look at worldwide sales, as an example Dead Or Alives worldwide success continued way beyond their UK heyday. Since then Tim Lever and Mike Percy (left DOA 1990) have found even more success as writers in their own right for other artists.
Cheers Brampt...listen, I like Mushy, it isn't personal. I like you to Brampt.

I was at school during the height of SAW's success. I went to secondary school in 1986.

I have never claimed that Josh's track is the best thing Waterman and Stock have ever written, however, I stand by my belief that it didn't deserve to come last. I think there were lots of things at play here...

1. The BBC show 'Your Country Needs You' was sh1te! Poorly produced, poorly put together and a poor selection of contenders displayed. Our entrant was doomed from the start, regardless of who wrote the track. The BBC should be ashamed. By the way, I am not calling for Cowell to get his grubby little mits on the competition either. Heaven forbid.

2. Lack of promotion across Europe.

3. Political voting. The UK's attitude in general is negative towards Europe. How can we expect Europe to dial up for us when our stance on Europe is well known?

4. Our ventures around the world cannot be ignored.

I would expect that Dead or Alive's flirtation with writing tracks for other artists was inspired by SAW!
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:33
miles19740
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sorry... was that S/A/W or just watertwaaat? hmm.. ok i cannot deny that steps sold more then most s/a/w artists!



if you want to do it properly, then compare s/a/w against other pop styles... beat, glam, punk, ska/two tone, new romantic etc or other writing producers like mickey most. you will find that like for like s/a/w were nowhere near as successful as those.

mass producing the same track at a time of record low sales (then) doesnt make an accurate interpretation of how popular the music really was.

as my cursory experiment shows, s/a/w were bit part players, even at their peak. you can do as many investigations as you want to, but my quick and not perfect analysis isnt far from the absolute truth. you cannot create a statistic based on fact that will prove the s/a/w material 'dominated' the charts... many adults simply ignored that tripe.
It doesn't matter. Pete Waterman was behind them and had huge success with them. I wish they were still around. Abba meets SAW...pure perfection.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:36
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Dead or Alive recorded two albums with The Hit Factory and Bananarama recorded two and a half albums with The Hit Factory.
and?... none were groundbreaking, none were inspirational, none broke any sales records... nor even came close.. typical of s/a/w they were pop clowns, puppets to be manipulated by old blokes trying to make money out of children and a certain type of gay. it worked to a degree... waterman has your money to spend on trains and you have his product that you paid for it several times over!
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:36
miles19740
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sorry... was that S/A/W or just watertwaaat? hmm.. ok i cannot deny that steps sold more then most s/a/w artists!



if you want to do it properly, then compare s/a/w against other pop styles... beat, glam, punk, ska/two tone, new romantic etc or other writing producers like mickey most. you will find that like for like s/a/w were nowhere near as successful as those.

mass producing the same track at a time of record low sales (then) doesnt make an accurate interpretation of how popular the music really was.

as my cursory experiment shows, s/a/w were bit part players, even at their peak. you can do as many investigations as you want to, but my quick and not perfect analysis isnt far from the absolute truth. you cannot create a statistic based on fact that will prove the s/a/w material 'dominated' the charts... many adults simply ignored that tripe.
Look, you don't like the fact that they were / are successful because it goes against the grain. You will look for any reason to knock them. They had a success rate that most singers, writers and producers can only dream about. If I could work with them...I would sign up tomorrow. They represent good quality pop.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:38
miles19740
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sorry... was that S/A/W or just watertwaaat? hmm.. ok i cannot deny that steps sold more then most s/a/w artists!



if you want to do it properly, then compare s/a/w against other pop styles... beat, glam, punk, ska/two tone, new romantic etc or other writing producers like mickey most. you will find that like for like s/a/w were nowhere near as successful as those.

mass producing the same track at a time of record low sales (then) doesnt make an accurate interpretation of how popular the music really was.

as my cursory experiment shows, s/a/w were bit part players, even at their peak. you can do as many investigations as you want to, but my quick and not perfect analysis isnt far from the absolute truth. you cannot create a statistic based on fact that will prove the s/a/w material 'dominated' the charts... many adults simply ignored that tripe.
Come on...compare like with like. The most successful writers and producers...which is what we are looking at...will be SAW...however you try to manipulate the stats.

Mushy, I bet you have got loads of their records! Come outta the closet!
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:43
mushymanrob
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Look, you don't like the fact that they were / are successful because it goes against the grain. You will look for any reason to knock them. They had a success rate that most singers, writers and producers can only dream about. If I could work with them...I would sign up tomorrow. They represent good quality pop.
miles miles miles... that simply is NOT true. the facts tell a different story. i dont need ANY reason to knock them, ill knock them because of the musical cancer they are, unlike every other great british style that we have produced, they added NOTHING to musical development, nothing to our heritage...they exploited YOU with the same boooorrriiing backing track. you are deluded, you really are.. they do NOT reprisent 'good quality pop', that is your oppinion not a fact, if it was a fact then they would have the critical acclaim to go with it...like abba for eg. they are minor rated writers... so many have been more successful, there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

do you really believe that anyone would sign up with watertwaaat now?
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:43
miles19740
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EXACTLY! " if youd been at school"... nurseryrhyme pop for children!

but FACTUALLY they DIDNT produce any 'best sellers' with only 2 tracks in the top 100 of the 80's getting a mention... thats DIRE!

SINGLES sales did go down, but had nothing to do with 'rave' as rave was underground and not a mainstream commercial enterprise. s/a/w was all about making money, they were a totally commercial venture.

singles slaes have always been big at a time when the music was good. good pop = good sales... fact. if s/a/w were really that good then the record sales would reflect that, but they dont. fact.
Oh dear...nothing to do with SAW either. Rave may have started as an underground force, as did Pete Waterman's music, but like everything, for it to be successful, it has to go mainstream.

Rave was mainstream...beginning with Black Box in 1989...all influenced by SAW. They wanted to emulate their sound but make it a bit cooler. That is what saw the gradual demise of PWL and SAW until 1997 when Steps were born. Hooray for Steps. Love 'em.

You name me an artist, writing team and production force who aren't in the music business to make money.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:46
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I just heard the song (out of curiosity) and ha, it's dreadful. It sounds like a theme tune from a low budget 90s children's show. I'm in no way surprised it came last.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:46
miles19740
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and?... none were groundbreaking, none were inspirational, none broke any sales records... nor even came close.. typical of s/a/w they were pop clowns, puppets to be manipulated by old blokes trying to make money out of children and a certain type of gay. it worked to a degree... waterman has your money to spend on trains and you have his product that you paid for it several times over!
Um...'You Spin Me Round...Like A Record'...being brought back this year for a certain ad campaign...how well did 'Venus' do in the States? Forget ground breaking, what the great British public want is catchy pop, and that is what Pete Waterman provides.
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:48
mushymanrob
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Come on...compare like with like. The most successful writers and producers...which is what we are looking at...will be SAW...however you try to manipulate the stats.

Mushy, I bet you have got loads of their records! Come outta the closet!
lets compare like for like... have they produced anything like lennon/mccartney? mikey most? chinny chap? xenomania?

nahhh... you winding me up now! they are nowhere near the 'most successful' songwriters! not even in the top 100.... goodnight!
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:50
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Um...'You Spin Me Round...Like A Record'...being brought back this year for a certain ad campaign...how well did 'Venus' do in the States? Forget ground breaking, what the great British public want is catchy pop, and that is what Pete Waterman provides.
no.. what children want is catchy pop... adults want something more meaningful. how can an adult listen to nurseryrhyme pop?... how disturbing...
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Old 01-06-2010, 23:59
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miles miles miles... that simply is NOT true. the facts tell a different story. i dont need ANY reason to knock them, ill knock them because of the musical cancer they are, unlike every other great british style that we have produced, they added NOTHING to musical development, nothing to our heritage...they exploited YOU with the same boooorrriiing backing track. you are deluded, you really are.. they do NOT reprisent 'good quality pop', that is your oppinion not a fact, if it was a fact then they would have the critical acclaim to go with it...like abba for eg. they are minor rated writers... so many have been more successful, there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

do you really believe that anyone would sign up with watertwaaat now?
Don't be knocking Abba...they are great to. Fabulous producers of pure pop.

"Musical cancer"...is a bit much. Saw got me into pop music in the first place. I heard one of their records, loved the sound, loved the energy and so searched out others by the same producers. I loved their sound, their positivity, their hi-NRG, their catchy beats and addictive keyboard riffs.

Artists today would definitely sign to Pete. Absolutely they would. The ultimate hit maker.
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:07
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lets compare like for like... have they produced anything like lennon/mccartney? mikey most? chinny chap? xenomania?

nahhh... you winding me up now! they are nowhere near the 'most successful' songwriters! not even in the top 100.... goodnight!
Um...I'd like to refer you to www.britishhitsongwriters.com

Pete Waterman and Mike Stock are third equal after them beetles...895 weeks spent on the UK charts...that is the equivalent to 17 consecutive years! I would call that success.

I would like that amount of success.
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:08
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Cheers Brampt...listen, I like Mushy, it isn't personal. I like you to Brampt.

I was at school during the height of SAW's success. I went to secondary school in 1986.

I have never claimed that Josh's track is the best thing Waterman and Stock have ever written, however, I stand by my belief that it didn't deserve to come last. I think there were lots of things at play here...

1. The BBC show 'Your Country Needs You' was sh1te! Poorly produced, poorly put together and a poor selection of contenders displayed. Our entrant was doomed from the start, regardless of who wrote the track. The BBC should be ashamed. By the way, I am not calling for Cowell to get his grubby little mits on the competition either. Heaven forbid.

2. Lack of promotion across Europe.

3. Political voting. The UK's attitude in general is negative towards Europe. How can we expect Europe to dial up for us when our stance on Europe is well known?

4. Our ventures around the world cannot be ignored.

I would expect that Dead or Alive's flirtation with writing tracks for other artists was inspired by SAW!

Who's fault was it with the lack of promotion? ALW put the hard work in, so should've Waterman.

As for voting, we came 5th last year, meaning the song this year was poor and Europe hated it. Pete attacking the Europeans for not supporting the UK entry didn't help.
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:12
miles19740
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no.. what children want is catchy pop... adults want something more meaningful. how can an adult listen to nurseryrhyme pop?... how disturbing...
Everyone likes catchy pop, regardless of age. Don't be trying to tar me with that worn out old brush.

Remember...17 years in the British charts...
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:15
miles19740
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lets compare like for like... have they produced anything like lennon/mccartney? mikey most? chinny chap? xenomania?

nahhh... you winding me up now! they are nowhere near the 'most successful' songwriters! not even in the top 100.... goodnight!
I like Xenomania to...they are just one step in front of Pete Waterman. The difference being, they have more technology at their disposal.

Off to spin some Big Fun..."Don't Blame It On Sunshine...Can' Shake The Feeling..."
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:19
miles19740
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Who's fault was it with the lack of promotion? ALW put the hard work in, so should've Waterman.

As for voting, we came 5th last year, meaning the song this year was poor and Europe hated it. Pete attacking the Europeans for not supporting the UK entry didn't help.
I lay the blame squarely at the BBC...and I am usually a BBC backer.

If they wanted Euro success, they would have put together a professional programme show casing the best that Britain has to offer in terms of singers. Following that, they should have organised a Euro tour and released and promoted the track to death.
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Old 02-06-2010, 00:20
miles19740
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Who's fault was it with the lack of promotion? ALW put the hard work in, so should've Waterman.

As for voting, we came 5th last year, meaning the song this year was poor and Europe hated it. Pete attacking the Europeans for not supporting the UK entry didn't help.
...and I didn't think our song was that great last year at all. Highly irritating in fact.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:31
mushymanrob
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Don't be knocking Abba...they are great to. Fabulous producers of pure pop.

"Musical cancer"...is a bit much. Saw got me into pop music in the first place. I heard one of their records, loved the sound, loved the energy and so searched out others by the same producers. I loved their sound, their positivity, their hi-NRG, their catchy beats and addictive keyboard riffs.

Artists today would definitely sign to Pete. Absolutely they would. The ultimate hit maker.
youve already said that miles, yep you were a kid in the late 80's...so was my daughter (who i actually bought 'kylie' the album for at crimbo), but she grew up and out of nurseryrhyme pop. we all know you love their sound...but nobody else does!

DONT lump abba in the same catagory as s/a/w. they are diametrically opposed. benny and bjorn are very well respected creative artists and are responsible for some of the best ever pop music. s/a/w are not.

Um...I'd like to refer you to www.britishhitsongwriters.com

Pete Waterman and Mike Stock are third equal after them beetles...895 weeks spent on the UK charts...that is the equivalent to 17 consecutive years! I would call that success.

I would like that amount of success.
been here before miles.... 895 weeks in the chart but only 2 records in the top 100 best sellers. id call that SHOCKING for such a 'successful' songwriting team. they obviously produced alot of minor hits... and dont forget, in the early years the charts were only top 20, by the time s/a/w were around it was at least top 60, so 'weeks in chart' mean nothing.

oh and its beAtles, a play on the word 'beat' cos they created 'beat' music.

Everyone likes catchy pop, regardless of age. Don't be trying to tar me with that worn out old brush.

Remember...17 years in the British charts...
utter rubbish....

...and I didn't think our song was that great last year at all. Highly irritating in fact.
i agree, it was, but it was still far better then that watertwaat rubbish as everyone knows! the verdict miles is that europe HATES that watertwaat track. get over it, get out of your s/a/w deluded bubble.
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:46
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Um...I'd like to refer you to www.britishhitsongwriters.com

Pete Waterman and Mike Stock are third equal after them beetles...895 weeks spent on the UK charts...that is the equivalent to 17 consecutive years! I would call that success.

I would like that amount of success.
Never heard of "them beetles"..............I know who The Beatles are though......
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Old 02-06-2010, 23:21
miles19740
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youve already said that miles, yep you were a kid in the late 80's...so was my daughter (who i actually bought 'kylie' the album for at crimbo), but . we all know you love their sound...but nobody else does!

DONT lump abba in the same catagory as s/a/w. they are diametrically opposed. benny and bjorn are very well respected creative artists and are responsible for some of the best ever pop music. s/a/w are not.



been here before miles.... 895 weeks in the chart but only 2 records in the top 100 best sellers. id call that SHOCKING for such a 'successful' songwriting team. they obviously produced alot of minor hits... and dont forget, in the early years the charts were only top 20, by the time s/a/w were around it was at least top 60, so 'weeks in chart' mean nothing.

oh and its beAtles, a play on the word 'beat' cos they created 'beat' music.



utter rubbish....



i agree, it was, but it was still far better then that watertwaat rubbish as everyone knows! the verdict miles is that europe HATES that watertwaat track. get over it, get out of your s/a/w deluded bubble.
Listen, we will never agree. It troubles you that they, SAW, are successful, and you can't quite handle it.

For as long as I can remember, the charts have been Top 40. Anything that charts less than that isn't considered a hit by the website I referred to earlier.

I don't measure success in terms of sales because sales fluctuate as you like to keep reminding me. To take account of this, I measure success in the pop charts by weeks on the chart, of which SAW, thus far, have spent 800 plus weeks there. A massive success.

Kylie's debut is great. I don't buy all this "she grew up and out of nursery rhyme pop" at all. I am consistent in my tastes in music which is a positive. My tastes don't fluctuate depending on which way the wind blows, like a lot of peoples' appear to do.

SAW's tracks, in the main, are pure pop brilliance. From Kylie's massive hits, to their early work with Hazel Dean, Bananarama, Dead or Alive to their later work with Rick Astley, Jason Donovan, Steps, Donna Summer, Sinitta, Mel & Kim, The Reynolds Girls, Lonnie Gordon and Tina Cousins.

You simply cannot deny that SAW are the most successful writers, arrangers and producers of perfect pop ever.
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:11
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3. Political voting. The UK's attitude in general is negative towards Europe. How can we expect Europe to dial up for us when our stance on Europe is well known?

4. Our ventures around the world cannot be ignored.
3) Germany's victory has proved that a decent song and a worthy winner can overcome the political voting hurdle (which is much reduced thanks to the 50-50 jury televote voting). Norway last year also did that.

4) "Our ventures"? Germany is probably still one of the most disliked countries in the world yet triumphed. Also, "our ventures" still got us in 5th place last year with Jade Ewen, which is pretty damn good.

The song may not have deserved to come last, but it certainly deserved a bottom 5 placing!
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