I had to drag myself out as a long time DS lurker to comment on this statement
Black Box have been around for a long time but to say they started rave makes me laugh! Somebody mentioned Frankie Knuckles who was pioneering house music way before Blackbox. The Shamen were producing albums before 89 and had a bigger influence on the rave sound/scene. To top this off you really believe that SAW influenced Black Box? I would rather think that Black Box were influenced by Italian Piano House not SAW.

Have a listen to the track below I linked. Pet Shop Boys - Opportunities (Lets Make Lots of Money). 1985.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8rht-C4FQ

Even back in 1985 Pet Shop Boys were producing a techno sounding song while it would be another 4+ years before SAW released Jason Donovan's Ten Good Reasons! Please go and compare the sound.

im not that childish miles, i agree they had a degree of chart success, but NOT the domination you from your deluded s/a/w world would like to believe...the evidence is there in the retro charts.


nonsense m8... do your research, official charts gre from top 20 in 1952 to top 75 used today.


lol.. now thats stupid... even waterman measures success by sales because when they sell nowt they get dropped! thats why s/a/w were prolific for 2 years... then everyone got fed up of them and they failed to shift units. thats why they stopped! sales fluctuate as a direct response to how good the music is!!!!! if s/a/w music was that popular then their sales would be high.... and dont forget, singles = so what! its albums that count.


she LEFT s/a/w to move into more adult orientated music, working with nick cave for eg... so i dont know why you would want to ignore the FACTS.


that is simply NOT TRUE. you are deluded.

your ignorance regarding the evolution of music is shocking. you have constantly made wild claims, ive never known such utter nonsense! hot chocolate started disco, claiming s/a/w created hi nrg and are responsible for dance, and now RAVE? ... black box rave?

m8... take some advice, dont drink and post on the internet because you only end up making youself look ridiculous.

oh and you admit that they were in it to make money?..yes?... and where do you think the money comes from?... oh yeah.. SALES! the very thing you dismissed!

Now you accuse me of drinking. Unbelievable.

What happened when Kylie left her pop roots and flirted with Nick Cave and the like? Her sales plummeted. Her most unsuccessful period.

SAW were responsible for launching and establishing Kylie's pop career. It wasn't until 2000 when she acknowledged that the style of music which she had become known and popular for was commercial pop, commercial pop she started making with SAW. Now she is very much back making pure pop, a clear nod to her early beginnings.

Listen, you champion the rubbish you like and I will champion the music I like, namely well crafted pop songs, songs written and produced by the likes of Abba, SAW, Xenomania and many commercial dance / europop outfits.

I know that...I know the charts began as the Top 20, and over the decades, has expanded to the Top 100. It is well recognised that for a song to be a hit, it needs to get into the top 10.

Remember, most successful writers, arrangers and producers...only bettered by them Beetles. 800 plus weeks on the UK charts...

Now, I am off to play some good quality pop beginning with some Abba, then a bit of Sonia, Bananarama, Dead or Alive, Kylie, Jason, The Reynolds Girls and Big Fun.

surely you were drunk when you posted that nonsense about black box starting rave?... otherwise you were deliberately winding me up! no sane person would post that as a fact..... surely...

what you say about kylie is true... s/a/w did launch her, she did experiment with better music and in reality, failed. she did turn back to her pop roots (ten years ago pop was fashionable) and she went on to create some great pop songs.... much better then her earlier material and is more respected for it. i rate 'cant get you out of my head' and 'love at first sight' highly along with later tracks like 'slow'.

nowt wrong with championing music you like, as long as you dont credit it with things it was NOT responsible for... because that is re-writing historical fact.. ie s/a/w did not create hi nrg, disco, dance, rave , they were a cheap fad at a time when sales were plummeting, their over manufactured sound was not liked by hardly a person outside their target audience, they did not 'dominate' the charts, they got no critical acclaim, no respect, no musical recognition, low sales, and no one cites them as influencial! tbh thats a pretty damning account for a songwriting/producing team that supposed to be great!

they werent even well crafted music... it was manufactured on computers and synths. now abba on the other hand, as ive already told you, WERE producing well crafted pieces of music, critically acclaimed, respected, influencial, ground breaking... abba, a group of 4 musicians, had more success on every level then s/a/w who are not fit to be mentioned in the same sentance.

WHAAAATTT? ... so a record that doesnt make the top ten isnt a hit?...

barking....

ffs its B-E-A-T-L-E-S....

so... a record has to be in the top ten to be a hit?... then you can SCRUB your claim that they are second most successful act in the charts second only to the beatles!!! because if youre using top ten places only... s/a/w will be nowhere!

Maybe PW and Josh-bloke are the only people in the world who 'That Sounds Good To'

The Rest of Europe (including the UK): That Don't Sound Good To Us

I fixed it for you.

You and Mushy are entitled to your opinions...I obviously disagree with the pair of you and stand by what I say.

miles m8.. ive told you before that i and no one can dispute you personal opinion on what you like... the issue I have is when you try to pass off nonsense as 'fact'. things like
- hot chocolate started 'disco'
-'that sounds good to me' will be top 5
- s/a/w created hi nrg
- rave started with black box in 1989 (black box arnt even rave)
- a track has to be top ten to be a 'hit'
- s/a/w created 'dance'
- s/a/w are the second most successful producers of all time, dispite only having 2 tracks in the top 100 best sellers... its all down to sales, thats what they do it for!

if you 'stand by' those remarks then you have lost the argument, because NO ONE else on the planet thinks that! on those points you are totally wrong, embarrassingly so.

She didn't sellar much, but she easily made some of the best songs of herr carrer. Did It Again, Confide In Me, Some Kind Of Bliss, Where The Wild Roses Go. All are so much better Got To Certain, The Word Is Out and The Locomotion.

And i don't really think Spinning Around and I should be so lucky are exactly in the same genre of music.

There is greatly similarity between Kylie's 88-92 and 00-10 periods than any other. Please Stay from her first Parlophone album could have easily been a SAW number.

no, i dont think these two sections in her career are simular, at all, her song from the 2000's sound different to 80's style she had back then. Yes shes had the few chessy single tthis century "Wow" but i couldnt have seen her singing that 20 years ago.

i agree ..... the only simularity is that they are 'pop', and what you said earlier, her 'indie' phase did result as some of her most critically acclaimed music, but it didnt sell well.

Perhaps Simon Cowell should do next year's Eurovision song or Xenomania?

Cheryl Cole can sing for the UK, on condition she takes over the role of Libby Kennedy on Neighbours (well, the current Libby isn't a national treasure, had No.1 hits with Girls Aloud or solo nor has won X Factor twice) and Cowell funds half of the show's production costs alongside Five, not to mention getting a say in cast axings.

Well anything's got to be better than Waterman.

I don't want Cowell's grubby hands all over Eurovision as well. He has already got his hands on ITV's schedules for half a year every year, and that is bad enough. Definitely no more Cowell on television.

You can't mime in Eurovision.

If Cheryl Cole or whatever she's going to call herself now did sing live, we'd be kicked out, even though we get automatic entry into the competition.

No! No! to Simon Cowell. Get that money grabbing, slave driver off our TV's!!!!

i do...

cos like watertwit he aint really got a clue and like watertwit he will fail and get shown up for the irrelevance (musically) he is.

Good point. Let's give him a go then