picked up one of the 9200t's yesterday with the -:-:-:- problem, followed the tutorial to the letter using the fluid in a CD cleaning kit, and the result..... perfect, clock in standby, well done and thank you
The 9200 --:-- clock problem.
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Originally Posted by librarian:
“.....
with the -:-:-:- problem
.....”
“.....
with the -:-:-:- problem
.....”
Only one colon hopefully --:--
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“Only one colon hopefully --:--”
“Only one colon hopefully --:--
”
still haven't got used to these bi-focals hehe, thanks Big-les it just fired up for its first record, fingers crossed
Big Big thank you to BIG-LES for this post, I now have my clock back and will be seeing how long it lasts.
Having worked in the avionics industry for many years and seen dendritic growth do its part to give problems, this is the first time I have seen it in the commercial world.
Looking at the pins after the clean and there was a definite reduction in growth around the pins. I did take a photo before cleaning but not after, as once tested the Mrs wanted it back.
Lack of conformal coating on the board and probably lead free solder. One good clean and its gone.
Thanks again, good write up, top job.
Having worked in the avionics industry for many years and seen dendritic growth do its part to give problems, this is the first time I have seen it in the commercial world.
Looking at the pins after the clean and there was a definite reduction in growth around the pins. I did take a photo before cleaning but not after, as once tested the Mrs wanted it back.
Lack of conformal coating on the board and probably lead free solder. One good clean and its gone.
Thanks again, good write up, top job.
I have two 9200Ts with this problem. I tried fixing both following the instructions very carefully. Neither one was fixed by the cleaning 
Originally Posted by jchittock:
“I have two 9200Ts with this problem. I tried fixing both following the instructions very carefully. Neither one was fixed by the cleaning”
“I have two 9200Ts with this problem. I tried fixing both following the instructions very carefully. Neither one was fixed by the cleaning
”
I'm sorry it didn't work for you but the solution has been an overwhelming success for most people. All I can suggest is try again cleaning with a small paint brush particularly in the area between the chip, crystal and super capacitor. It's the connection between pin 1 of the chip and the crystal that is the real problem area.
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“I'm sorry it didn't work for you but the solution has been an overwhelming success for most people. All I can suggest is try again cleaning with a small paint brush particularly in the area between the chip, crystal and super capacitor. It's the connection between pin 1 of the chip and the crystal that is the real problem area.”
“I'm sorry it didn't work for you but the solution has been an overwhelming success for most people. All I can suggest is try again cleaning with a small paint brush particularly in the area between the chip, crystal and super capacitor. It's the connection between pin 1 of the chip and the crystal that is the real problem area.”
One is working now! It seems leaving it on for an hour made the difference. However leaving the other on didn't help. Yes thanks, I may have another go. Failing that, I'll treat myself to a HDR-FOX T2!
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“I'm sorry it didn't work for you but the solution has been an overwhelming success for most people. All I can suggest is try again cleaning with a small paint brush particularly in the area between the chip, crystal and super capacitor. It's the connection between pin 1 of the chip and the crystal that is the real problem area.”
“I'm sorry it didn't work for you but the solution has been an overwhelming success for most people. All I can suggest is try again cleaning with a small paint brush particularly in the area between the chip, crystal and super capacitor. It's the connection between pin 1 of the chip and the crystal that is the real problem area.”
Originally Posted by jchittock:
“One is working now! It seems leaving it on for an hour made the difference. However leaving the other on didn't help. Yes thanks, I may have another go. Failing that, I'll treat myself to a HDR-FOX T2!”
“One is working now! It seems leaving it on for an hour made the difference. However leaving the other on didn't help. Yes thanks, I may have another go. Failing that, I'll treat myself to a HDR-FOX T2!”
Big-les, U R A hero! I persevered and tried them both (for good measure) again and now both are working - thanks for figuring it out and for suggesting I try again
Originally Posted by jchittock:
“Big-les, U R A hero! I persevered and tried them both (for good measure) again and now both are working - thanks for figuring it out and for suggesting I try again”
“Big-les, U R A hero! I persevered and tried them both (for good measure) again and now both are working - thanks for figuring it out and for suggesting I try again
”
Bang goes your excuse for buying an HDR-FOX T2.
I have read this thread with interest, as I have the same clock problem. Am grateful for this solution, but have a question: will I lose all the programmes stored on the hard drive? I'm a bit nervous about attempting this cleaning: I am not technical at all: what if I can't put the thing back?
Originally Posted by Keiko9:
“I have read this thread with interest, as I have the same clock problem. Am grateful for this solution, but have a question: will I lose all the programmes stored on the hard drive? I'm a bit nervous about attempting this cleaning: I am not technical at all: what if I can't put the thing back?”
“I have read this thread with interest, as I have the same clock problem. Am grateful for this solution, but have a question: will I lose all the programmes stored on the hard drive? I'm a bit nervous about attempting this cleaning: I am not technical at all: what if I can't put the thing back?”
Nothing on your machine will change, just be careful not to physically damage anything and of cause unplug from the mains. Post #125 gives a link to removal and refitting instructions. The hard drive cable and the foil white data cable are likely to be the things that give you trouble. Ease the long plug from the hard drive by gently moving it up and down while easing it away from the hard drive until it comes out. Remove the cable before unscrewing the drive. Refitting is a firm straight push. The white foil data cable does not have a plug on the end, the cable simply pulls straight out from the motherboard socket. When refitting push the cable straight back in without letting it buckle.
Still working for me and I lost nothing in the process, all recordings and channels intact.
Originally Posted by Keiko9:
“I have read this thread with interest, as I have the same clock problem. Am grateful for this solution, but have a question: will I lose all the programmes stored on the hard drive? I'm a bit nervous about attempting this cleaning: I am not technical at all: what if I can't put the thing back?”
“I have read this thread with interest, as I have the same clock problem. Am grateful for this solution, but have a question: will I lose all the programmes stored on the hard drive? I'm a bit nervous about attempting this cleaning: I am not technical at all: what if I can't put the thing back?”
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“ Ease the long plug from the hard drive by gently moving it up and down while easing it away from the hard drive until it comes out.”
“ Ease the long plug from the hard drive by gently moving it up and down while easing it away from the hard drive until it comes out.”
Big-les, thanks for the tip, I have incorporated your words into the instructions for replacing 9200T clock module.
The updated version is available here:
Originally Posted by JefUK:
“Big-les, thanks for the tip, I have incorporated your words into the instructions for replacing 9200T clock module.
The updated version is available here:
”
“Big-les, thanks for the tip, I have incorporated your words into the instructions for replacing 9200T clock module.
The updated version is available here:
”
I used to ease the IDE connectors (in computers) from side to side but on one particularly difficult connector I realised up and down was far less stressful for all concerned.
Have a good Christmas.
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“I’ve been interested in this clock problem for a while but as my clock is working fine I didn’t have the opportunity to investigate it. Earlier this year a forum member sent me his failed clock display board and for the last couple of weeks I’ve been investigating the problem. I have found the failure mechanism and repaired his board which has been running in my 9200 for several days doing various test recordings from Standby with complete success. I was going to post my finding early in July after a few weeks of running but earlier this week I had the opportunity to look at a second display board which I have now done and repaired this morning. The failure mechanism on both boards is identical so I am reasonably confident that this is the failure mechanism on the majority of failed boards. I have therefore decided to post now.
One of the circuits on the board is a Real Time Clock (RTC), this is responsible for keeping the time during Standby and also in the event of a power failure. I say power failure but in reality the time will be maintained for over a week, maybe more. One of the components of the RTC circuit is the RTC integrated circuit (chip). This chip contains a very low power oscillator which, with the 32.768kHz crystal, provides the basic time keeping accuracy in Standby. It is this oscillator that fails but not due to any component failure. The input to the oscillator (pin 1 of the chip) is very sensitive and is being affected by random small voltages on the surface of the board. The cause of these voltages is a contaminant on the surface of the protective lacquer covering the board in the area of the RTC. I am guessing the voltages are being caused by a chemical reaction, but the end result is that the oscillator is turned off. The repair is to simply clean the RTC area of the board.
Anyone who feels confident to change the board will be able to effect a repair, all you need is cotton buds, a small artist’s paint brush (mine had 2 on it, I assume that’s a size) and a cleaning agent, and of course a fair amount of care. A tutorial on how to change the board can be found on the Hummy.org site. The cleaning agent I used in the lab was ethanol, you probably won’t be able to buy ethanol but surgical spirit looks like being a good alternative. I looked in Boots and their surgical spirit is a mixture of ethanol and methanol so should work fine. Rubbing alcohol contains additives such as perfume so don’t use that. Certainly don’t use acetone based compounds such as cellulose thinners or nail polish remover as they will strip off the protective lacquer and melt any plastic parts they come into contact with.
Take reasonable static precautions, most electronic components are quite robust but can be easily destroyed by static discharges. Remove the board and hold it the right way up (display at the top, white cable at the bottom) with the display facing you. The area you need to clean is the left hand end of the board. The 12mm round component labelled CE921 is the super capacitor (think of it as a small rechargeable battery), the black square component with eight legs labelled U923 is the chip and the silver cylindrical component 8mm long labelled Y921 is the crystal. These components together with the very small components above and below the chip form the RTC circuit. If you’ve just taken the board out of the 9200 the super capacitor will be charged and have about 3 or 4 volts across it but this should not be a problem.
Start by cleaning the back side of the board with a cotton bud dampened with surgical spirit. Don’t worry about removing any felt tip pen markings, they will smudge immediately the fluid touches them. Clean an area from the left hand end of the board to about 30mm in, pay particular attention to the area around the connections to the super capacitor and crystal. Repeat this several times with new cotton buds until the cotton bud stays clean, but remember you are only removing contamination not trying to remove the protective lacquer. Also note that the contamination may be invisible, as it was on the first board I repaired, but my lab equipment picked up the surface voltages. Now clean the component side of the board being very careful not to cause mechanical damage to the components, although they are quite tough. Hold the board with the left hand end down so any excess fluid can run off rather than into the rest of the board. Again clean from the end of the board to about 30mm in paying particular attention to the area between the chip, super capacitor and crystal. Use the brush dipped in fluid to help clean around and under the super capacitor and crystal. The components above the chip don’t really need any attention but don’t worry about fluid getting on them, just dry the brush on tissue and brush the fluid away. Repeat the cleaning process several times. I have the advantage of being able to detect when the stray voltages have been eliminated but cleaning 3 or 4 times should suffice. Dab off any excess fluid from awkward areas with a tissue and lightly blow dry.
The success of this repair will depend on how thoroughly you do the cleaning. I used exactly the above procedure on the second board and I could see with my lab equipment that the oscillations were getting stronger with each cleaning process. I will be pleased to hear your success/failure stories but obviously you do this procedure at your own risk.
I would like to thank Martin Liddle for providing the guinea pig board and Coulrophobe for providing the second board.”
“I’ve been interested in this clock problem for a while but as my clock is working fine I didn’t have the opportunity to investigate it. Earlier this year a forum member sent me his failed clock display board and for the last couple of weeks I’ve been investigating the problem. I have found the failure mechanism and repaired his board which has been running in my 9200 for several days doing various test recordings from Standby with complete success. I was going to post my finding early in July after a few weeks of running but earlier this week I had the opportunity to look at a second display board which I have now done and repaired this morning. The failure mechanism on both boards is identical so I am reasonably confident that this is the failure mechanism on the majority of failed boards. I have therefore decided to post now.
One of the circuits on the board is a Real Time Clock (RTC), this is responsible for keeping the time during Standby and also in the event of a power failure. I say power failure but in reality the time will be maintained for over a week, maybe more. One of the components of the RTC circuit is the RTC integrated circuit (chip). This chip contains a very low power oscillator which, with the 32.768kHz crystal, provides the basic time keeping accuracy in Standby. It is this oscillator that fails but not due to any component failure. The input to the oscillator (pin 1 of the chip) is very sensitive and is being affected by random small voltages on the surface of the board. The cause of these voltages is a contaminant on the surface of the protective lacquer covering the board in the area of the RTC. I am guessing the voltages are being caused by a chemical reaction, but the end result is that the oscillator is turned off. The repair is to simply clean the RTC area of the board.
Anyone who feels confident to change the board will be able to effect a repair, all you need is cotton buds, a small artist’s paint brush (mine had 2 on it, I assume that’s a size) and a cleaning agent, and of course a fair amount of care. A tutorial on how to change the board can be found on the Hummy.org site. The cleaning agent I used in the lab was ethanol, you probably won’t be able to buy ethanol but surgical spirit looks like being a good alternative. I looked in Boots and their surgical spirit is a mixture of ethanol and methanol so should work fine. Rubbing alcohol contains additives such as perfume so don’t use that. Certainly don’t use acetone based compounds such as cellulose thinners or nail polish remover as they will strip off the protective lacquer and melt any plastic parts they come into contact with.
Take reasonable static precautions, most electronic components are quite robust but can be easily destroyed by static discharges. Remove the board and hold it the right way up (display at the top, white cable at the bottom) with the display facing you. The area you need to clean is the left hand end of the board. The 12mm round component labelled CE921 is the super capacitor (think of it as a small rechargeable battery), the black square component with eight legs labelled U923 is the chip and the silver cylindrical component 8mm long labelled Y921 is the crystal. These components together with the very small components above and below the chip form the RTC circuit. If you’ve just taken the board out of the 9200 the super capacitor will be charged and have about 3 or 4 volts across it but this should not be a problem.
Start by cleaning the back side of the board with a cotton bud dampened with surgical spirit. Don’t worry about removing any felt tip pen markings, they will smudge immediately the fluid touches them. Clean an area from the left hand end of the board to about 30mm in, pay particular attention to the area around the connections to the super capacitor and crystal. Repeat this several times with new cotton buds until the cotton bud stays clean, but remember you are only removing contamination not trying to remove the protective lacquer. Also note that the contamination may be invisible, as it was on the first board I repaired, but my lab equipment picked up the surface voltages. Now clean the component side of the board being very careful not to cause mechanical damage to the components, although they are quite tough. Hold the board with the left hand end down so any excess fluid can run off rather than into the rest of the board. Again clean from the end of the board to about 30mm in paying particular attention to the area between the chip, super capacitor and crystal. Use the brush dipped in fluid to help clean around and under the super capacitor and crystal. The components above the chip don’t really need any attention but don’t worry about fluid getting on them, just dry the brush on tissue and brush the fluid away. Repeat the cleaning process several times. I have the advantage of being able to detect when the stray voltages have been eliminated but cleaning 3 or 4 times should suffice. Dab off any excess fluid from awkward areas with a tissue and lightly blow dry.
The success of this repair will depend on how thoroughly you do the cleaning. I used exactly the above procedure on the second board and I could see with my lab equipment that the oscillations were getting stronger with each cleaning process. I will be pleased to hear your success/failure stories but obviously you do this procedure at your own risk.
I would like to thank Martin Liddle for providing the guinea pig board and Coulrophobe for providing the second board.”
I've repeatedly cleaned the area of PCB containing the clock components, as per your suggestions, without success. I'm wondering whether the component CE921, which you describe as a super capacitor, could be down. If this component supplies power to the clock components to keep them working over a long period, I wonder Humax didn't use a rechargeable cell instead. Is the capacitor replaceable, if so, do you know the capacity rating, etc.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge on this useful device. D.
Originally Posted by Dunnroamin:
“I've repeatedly cleaned the area of PCB containing the clock components, as per your suggestions, without success. I'm wondering whether the component CE921, which you describe as a super capacitor, could be down. If this component supplies power to the clock components to keep them working over a long period, I wonder Humax didn't use a rechargeable cell instead. Is the capacitor replaceable, if so, do you know the capacity rating, etc.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge on this useful device. D.”
“I've repeatedly cleaned the area of PCB containing the clock components, as per your suggestions, without success. I'm wondering whether the component CE921, which you describe as a super capacitor, could be down. If this component supplies power to the clock components to keep them working over a long period, I wonder Humax didn't use a rechargeable cell instead. Is the capacitor replaceable, if so, do you know the capacity rating, etc.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge on this useful device. D.”
Are you following my cleaning instructions to the letter?
In STANDBY and in normal operation (ON) power (5 volts at very little current) is supplied by the motherboard, the super capacitor does nothing but is simply kept at full charge. The super capacitor supplies power to keep the clock running when the 9200 does not have a mains supply, that is its sole purpose. My guess is the design criteria for this capacitor was to maintain the clock during power cuts and the capacitor is more than adequate for the job.
Yes the capacitor is replaceable but I very much doubt yours is duff, I assume the clock works ok during normal operation (ON). The failure of the clock in STANDBY is nothing to do with its power supply, it is to do with data being sent to the clock chip registers. In normal operation (ON) this data comes from the broadcast stream, in STANDBY it comes from the clock chip internal oscillator and it is this oscillator that is not running on a failed board.
From memory this is the capacitor.
I have had this standby display problem too. Following the advice from Big-les helped but only for a few days. I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments. I've even tried reusing the existing ribbon cable. Humax have supplied me a replacement but that is the same. All is ok when I put the old board back, except still with the standby problem. . Any ideas? Meanwhile I'll have another go at cleaning the board again
Yes try cleaning the board again following my instructions to the letter, this does cure the problem, it's not just a work around.
I have no idea why two new boards give you boot problems, no one has reported that before as far as I'm aware. I suggest you try to get Humax to explain that one telling them your 9200 boots fine when you put the original board back in, it's fair to say that eliminates you from being the cause.
I have no idea why two new boards give you boot problems, no one has reported that before as far as I'm aware. I suggest you try to get Humax to explain that one telling them your 9200 boots fine when you put the original board back in, it's fair to say that eliminates you from being the cause.
Originally Posted by patbees:
“.....
I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments.
.....”
“.....
I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments.
.....”
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“.....
I suggest you try to get Humax to explain that one telling them your 9200 boots fine when you put the original board back in, it's fair to say that eliminates you from being the cause.”
“.....
I suggest you try to get Humax to explain that one telling them your 9200 boots fine when you put the original board back in, it's fair to say that eliminates you from being the cause.”
If you do talk to Humax please let us know their answer.
Originally Posted by patbees:
“I have had this standby display problem too. Following the advice from Big-les helped but only for a few days. I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments. I've even tried reusing the existing ribbon cable. Humax have supplied me a replacement but that is the same. All is ok when I put the old board back, except still with the standby problem. . Any ideas? Meanwhile I'll have another go at cleaning the board again”
“I have had this standby display problem too. Following the advice from Big-les helped but only for a few days. I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments. I've even tried reusing the existing ribbon cable. Humax have supplied me a replacement but that is the same. All is ok when I put the old board back, except still with the standby problem. . Any ideas? Meanwhile I'll have another go at cleaning the board again”
Are you sure you have --:-- (with the colon) as opposed to just four dashes? Four dashes indicate a possible hard drive problem.
Originally Posted by coulrophobe:
“Are you sure you have --:-- (with the colon) as opposed to just four dashes? Four dashes indicate a possible hard drive problem.”
“Are you sure you have --:-- (with the colon) as opposed to just four dashes? Four dashes indicate a possible hard drive problem.”
There's still something strange though coulrophobe if the two new boards from Humax are preventing the 9200 from booting, unless patbees coincidentally has failed to connect the hard drive (or something) correctly when trying the new boards. Even so we know from Martin's experience that the 9200 will work as a STB without a hard drive.
Originally Posted by Big-les:
“unless patbees coincidentally has failed to connect the hard drive (or something) correctly .”
“unless patbees coincidentally has failed to connect the hard drive (or something) correctly .”
That was my thinking, but I had missed the point that two new boards exhibited the problem.
I suppose it is possible that one new board might screw a data bus or a power supply line .. but two?
Originally Posted by patbees:
“I have had this standby display problem too. Following the advice from Big-les helped but only for a few days. I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments. I've even tried reusing the existing ribbon cable. Humax have supplied me a replacement but that is the same. All is ok when I put the old board back, except still with the standby problem. . Any ideas? Meanwhile I'll have another go at cleaning the board again”
“I have had this standby display problem too. Following the advice from Big-les helped but only for a few days. I gave in and bought a replacement from Humax. Unfortunately the new board seems incompatible. It looks the same and has the same part number sticker but the 9200T does not boot properly with no video and the display showing only 4 horizontal dashes after a brief spin of the segments. I've even tried reusing the existing ribbon cable. Humax have supplied me a replacement but that is the same. All is ok when I put the old board back, except still with the standby problem. . Any ideas? Meanwhile I'll have another go at cleaning the board again”
Did you double-check that the ribbon cable was inserted correctly (insertion depth and orientation) with the new boards?
The new board, that is. The bonus of a new board is that the display brightness returns to as-new level. The cost is small when expressed in my new inflation neutral currency 'The Full Tank of Diesel' at approximately 0.5 FToD units. 
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