I'm not sure it matters how many people care what Stephen Fry says. What matters is that he's absolutely right.

Maybe they wouldn't let him be in it.
He's right about drama though, the US (plus France with Spiral and Sweden with Wallander) leaves us standing these days.

Hilarious thread.

Fry is a massive Doctor Who fan. (Having seen his house on some show recently he has a Dalek in his living room.)

Saying that it's not made for adults is not a criticism of it but of his feeling that there is a lack of shows for adults.

Bullcrap - It's a matter of taste, "right" and "wrong" don't come into it.

I think he's right generally but this Dr Who series is a lot worse in 'childishness' than the others. So much so that (despite this latest Dr not doing a bad job, really) It took me three days to watch the second last Who episode completely and I have watched a grand total of 10 minutes of last Saturday's episode before giving up.

I don't think I will be watching the rest of the series. The Russel T. Davies helmed series had their problems but I think Steven Moffatt has dropped the ball badly on this.

Oh, and I think he's being a bit unfair singling out Merlin, though as I quite enjoy that and I think it has a fair bit for adults to like.

Indeed but this is what happens in this forum when you dare to say that children are the target audience for Doctor Who.

He looks a bit like an early Jon Pertwee in that photo, with his velvet smoking jacket and 1970's era bouffont hairdo.

Although of course Jon had the excuse of it actually being the 1970s when he did it, and he was playing a fictional character.

Who do you think Stephen Fry is? The only sci-fi thing he has done was The Crystal Cube, with Hugh Laurie (which turned out to be different to what the BBC wanted from them, so they didn't commission a full series).

He is an extremely well respected figure in all media forms in Britain, a true polymath, and gaining huge respect worldwide.


Is he claiming that his show is 'adult drama', because if he is your argument would stand... Oh, no he isn't! So I don't get where you're coming from.

And besides - he likes Doctor Who. He's not bashing it.

One more thing - Doctor Who is childish, and has been since it came back. It had to be that way to gain a large audience of, well, kids! Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial.

I think it's fair comment. Much as I like Who, It's not written solely for adults. He's begging for more stuff that isn't saturday teatime fare. I don't think he meant necessarily at the expense of Doctor Who, which he pointed out was high quality. He's clearly just getting a bit tired of BBC execs who think that just saying "Doctor Who!" is a trump card to wave aside all criticism of their current attitude to drama.

[Edit because Fry actually seems to be something of a Who fan] He might also sound like hes being sniffy about adults watching Doctor Who other than just sitting with their kiddies, but that's not the main thrust of his argument; and people say he likes the show. He seems to have said that he has enjoyed watching it. I enjoy a range of arts and media - Who is one of them.

A discussion on infantilisim and balkanization of TV in general is probably worth having. Won't start one here though.

There will also be people who want Who itself to set a slightly more serious tone and take the scifi bits a little more seriously. That's a separate convesation I think - no amount of tweaking in that general direction will be the answer Fry is looking for. Not even if it stripped out the gags and slowed things down a bit. I'd no objections to tweaking the age profile up a jot, but I'm pretty happy. Certainly wouldn't want it to turn into some po faced american type thinks-its-deep-when-it-not thing.

I do hope there isn't a load of childish kneejerk backlash. Anyway, QI is full of willy and bum jokes, so he's not exactly Bertrand Russell himself (Museum of Curiosity is its slightly less fart jokey cousin). So there!

'Adult' shows? Perhaps Ashes to Ashes? How about 'The Streets'?

If it's aimed at the FAMILY on a Saturday early evening slot, of course, children must be taken into account in their programming. I thought Dr Who is a clever show that attempt to please a large demographic and generally they hit the mark. Stephen Fry should know target audience is important. Heros and Lost appeal to a particular group of adults (young adults in general) and they are not particularly 'shocking', maybe some can argue that they are more thought-provoking, but for some it's too convoluting and don't see them as entertainment. I for one found Lost rather tedious.

Hey I've an idea!

Let's all leap on the defensive and launch nasty personal attacks on Mr Fry without actually reading his comments in full and working out that his views are perfectly correct and not in fact anti-Who.

Oh never mind, I see you were way ahead of me...

Oh no i'm not.

Yeah i think your right that is what he is basically trying to say....he isn't even calling it childish....he says it is a childrens programme which is different, and to an extent I agree with him, in its heart it is a childrens programme...

But what i don't agree with is that the show isn't as complex/dark/challenging/ambigious/slighlty disturbing....all those things cover Midnight for example.....a show doesn't need to be an adult show to all that...in fact children's TV and stories are more darker than anything adult usually is. For example most adult shows, to make something adult, they thrown lots of sex and swearing, violence and gore....because they are things that they can't show show before the watershed....but complex and dark they can, and do....Like Midnight as i already pointed out, or something like Vincent despit not being my favourite story, handled the Mental Health issues with much more realism and tender than most adult dramas do on mental health.....theyget bogged down with the sex lives and the amount the person was drinking, or how someone like VanGogh ended up with his ear being cut....they don't really care about the mental health side....but yet Doctor does does that while managing to entertain too....and that is in itself a complex thing....


I don't agree with the statements that some people feel this series is more adult...(Fry obviously doesn't seem too see a difference)....It may not have a burping bin or a slitheen farting...but they have been done, so it would look like they were running out of ideas if they used them again...so instead we get the Doctor spitting out food, multi-coloured Daleks, a puking space whale, slapstick fight between Rory and the Fish vampire, spitting grannies, headbutting.....

It does both very well...and it is what makes it so different to every other show in the world......it can be dark and childish all at the same time, best example the Slitheen, a farting alien that skins you alive and uses it to live your life, and later begs for freedom through those very dead lips....

There's no need to insult Stephen Fry, he's as entitled to his opinion regarding the veiwing age of BBC programmes as anyone else.

Personally, i've found series 5 more grown up than 1, 2 or 4 (3 had some mature episodes too though) And as a result, 3 and 5 are my favourite series.

Conversly, i'm willing to guess that children like the more shil friendly eps in series 1,2 and 3.
As it's the children who buy the most toys, t-shirts, books etc... i can't blaime the beeb for including many child friendly aspects. And i think it's good of them to keep it family friendly, as opposed to another kids show.

Also, whether something is childish or not is entirly subjective.

It's not written exclusively for children or adults, but for families. End of story, really.

Evidently you don't.
He said
"The only drama the BBC will boast about are Merlin and Doctor Who, which are fine but they're children's programmes. They're not for adults. And they're very good children's programmes, don't get me wrong, they're wonderfully written... but they are not for adults. "

The only arguable bit is whether they are for adults, but it is undeniable that the primary focus or DW is children. As usual some journalist is trying to make a story out of a valid point, i.e. that serious drama isn't being made in any quantity, and the little that is is not being promoted.

An alternative would have been to say that how good would it have been to have not just torchwood, but multiple series, like say the martian chronicles, blakes7, X-files, Lost or the twilight zone, pitched as primetime weekday ?
Or contemporary drama (as opposed to endlessly rehashed costume dramas)?

I guess because he doesn't want to annoy the PTB he didn't make the obvious point that it is by filling the schedules with dross like Norton, Forsyth and hospital series together with soaps that the real damage is done. The BBC resisted soap for years, now it is around 40& of PT, with reality garbage another 30%.

Read people.
He is saying we don't make enough quality adult drama, and Doctor Who and Merlin are family faire and do not "cut it" as adult drama.
He isn't saying Who is crap.

You're not what? In denial? You are if you think Doctor Who is 'adult drama'...

Merlin is definitely aimed at the same demographic (i.e. broad) as Dr Who. Strangely, after six episodes, I lost interst in that one. But I found Dr Who (only started watching this series) quite engaging and clever, even if it appeals to children, I don't think there's anything wrong with adults watching it as a light entertainment Saturday early evening fare.

I doubt Mr Fry mentioned them. I suspect he's thinking more about things like The Wire. It would be interesting to see his comments in full.

Exactly. Fry is not having a go at who, the "wonderfully written" comment should have been a clue. He is making a point about programme makers and the general quality of TV in this country.

He is saying the BBC is not putting the same recources into making adult drama (I suspect he's thinking more "the wire" than "lost" ) as it is to making more "childish" programmes. I'm not sure I agree with him on this, but thats an other post.

Please don't turn this into "Steven Fry Vs. Dr.Who". That would just be silly.

Try Spooks a few years back, before they decided you had to have a James Bond coundown or explosion every week.

I deny your accusation!

Wow. Its odd to have people shout at me about my opinion again. Just like that thread i made before and will not be informing anyone of incase they restart it.
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(Just so you know )

Having re read Fry's comments I do now think that he wasn't criticising Doctor Who as such, but rather his view of the lack of 'adult' shows on the BBC. However I feel he is wrong about the lack of true adult orientated BBC productions and could have expressed his view much more clearly.

The thing that really gets my goat is the arrogant way he keeps repeating that Doctor Who and Merlin are 'not for adults'. Who the bloody hell does Fry think he is to try and tell people what they should be watching?Just like many other posters on this forum I am an adult and I choose to watch Doctor Who, sure it may be created as a family show but I totaly enjoy it.

There is nothing wrong with adults choosing to watch family or childrens television. It can be entertaining, refreshing and can add a sense of balance to an adult life.

I agree, to attack Fry personally would indeed be childish.