Got a call from a friend who cleans for an old lady. The phone wasn't working and could I have a look being all things technical? Anyway went round this afternoon and she has the main bt socket in the hallway. Picked up the phone which was connected to that and there was heavy interference. I went into the living room and there was nothing at all on the extension. Went back to the main socket, not a new openzone one but an old style one and disconnected the extension wires. With the phone connected it is clear as a bell and everything works fine. looking at the wires for the extension, the person who wired it up used the orange wires and I know wires are wires and it doesn't really matter which colours are what as long as they are both the same at either end. Also noticed that the cable that is used to feed the extension had only one blue/white wire which is why I suspect whoever wired it up used the two orange/white wires. Anyway no matter which combination of wires I use the outcome is always the same, no phone! If i disconnect the extension the phone works perfectly. I've never came across a problem like this and wonder if you guys could shine any light on it?
Strange extension problem
Terminals 2 and 5 on the main socket wired to terminals 2 and 5 on the extension socket. As you say, the colours used don't matter as long as you don't reverse them (2 must go to 2 and 5 to 5).
Originally Posted by Heinz:
“Terminals 2 and 5 on the main socket wired to terminals 2 and 5 on the extension socket. As you say, the colours used don't matter as long as you don't reverse them (2 must go to 2 and 5 to 5).”
“Terminals 2 and 5 on the main socket wired to terminals 2 and 5 on the extension socket. As you say, the colours used don't matter as long as you don't reverse them (2 must go to 2 and 5 to 5).”
That's the strange thing. I have the two blue/white wires connected to points A & B on the master socket, I then have the 2 orange/white fitted into terminals 2 & 5 coming from the master socket. I then have the same two orange/white wires connected to terminals 2 & 5 at the extension but when connected the master socket stops working. I forgot to add that it doesn't matter if the extension end has the wires connected or not because as soon as I make the two wire connections at the master socket end it stops working. Only when there is just the two blue/white wires connected to points A&B does the master socket work as it should. Very puzzling?
Originally Posted by Heinz:
“Terminals 2 and 5 on the main socket wired to terminals 2 and 5 on the extension socket. As you say, the colours used don't matter as long as you don't reverse them (2 must go to 2 and 5 to 5).”
“Terminals 2 and 5 on the main socket wired to terminals 2 and 5 on the extension socket. As you say, the colours used don't matter as long as you don't reverse them (2 must go to 2 and 5 to 5).”
Not quite correct, one must use a pair e.g. Blue & White and White & Blue.
Second it is wiser to stick to the convention of Blue & White to 2 and White & Blue to 5. That is what everyone else does.
To the OP, are there any other sockets.
BTW, its Openreach.
Trace the cable from master to extension sockets. Sounds very much like there is some damage along it's length. Possibly causing a short circuit.
Look out especially if the cable disappears under the carpet to cross a hall way or door opening. Many people think that no harm will come to the wire if it's run under a carpet. They are mistaken. All it does is hide the damage and make it harder to find.
Another favourite is to run it round a door frame and hope the door doesn't trap the cable when it closes. Rather than drill a hole in the frame and feed the cable through that.
If the cable is broken then the best option is a complete replacement. And make sure the new cable is run correctly
.
Look out especially if the cable disappears under the carpet to cross a hall way or door opening. Many people think that no harm will come to the wire if it's run under a carpet. They are mistaken. All it does is hide the damage and make it harder to find.
Another favourite is to run it round a door frame and hope the door doesn't trap the cable when it closes. Rather than drill a hole in the frame and feed the cable through that.
If the cable is broken then the best option is a complete replacement. And make sure the new cable is run correctly
.
Originally Posted by beerhunter2:
“Not quite correct, one must use a pair e.g. Blue & White and White & Blue.
Second it is wiser to stick to the convention of Blue & White to 2 and White & Blue to 5. That is what everyone else does.
To the OP, are there any other sockets.
BTW, its Openreach.”
“Not quite correct, one must use a pair e.g. Blue & White and White & Blue.
Second it is wiser to stick to the convention of Blue & White to 2 and White & Blue to 5. That is what everyone else does.
To the OP, are there any other sockets.
BTW, its Openreach.”
Not quite convinced on the using a pair comment? As long as I'm using the same two wires at the master socket and the same two wires at the extension then there should be no problem because after all they are only wires? I know it is the common case of using the same pairs as it is an easy reference. There is only one blue/white cable as mentioned in my earlier post, that's why I believe the original installer used the two orange/white cable instead.
There is another extension taken off the first but when I was attempting to fix the fault the second extension was disconnected to rule that out
Originally Posted by chrisjr:
“Trace the cable from master to extension sockets. Sounds very much like there is some damage along it's length. Possibly causing a short circuit.
Look out especially if the cable disappears under the carpet to cross a hall way or door opening. Many people think that no harm will come to the wire if it's run under a carpet. They are mistaken. All it does is hide the damage and make it harder to find.
Another favourite is to run it round a door frame and hope the door doesn't trap the cable when it closes. Rather than drill a hole in the frame and feed the cable through that.
If the cable is broken then the best option is a complete replacement. And make sure the new cable is run correctly .”
“Trace the cable from master to extension sockets. Sounds very much like there is some damage along it's length. Possibly causing a short circuit.
Look out especially if the cable disappears under the carpet to cross a hall way or door opening. Many people think that no harm will come to the wire if it's run under a carpet. They are mistaken. All it does is hide the damage and make it harder to find.
Another favourite is to run it round a door frame and hope the door doesn't trap the cable when it closes. Rather than drill a hole in the frame and feed the cable through that.
If the cable is broken then the best option is a complete replacement. And make sure the new cable is run correctly
.”
The cabling is running along the top of the skirting board the length of the hallway and then it is fed throught the wall adjasent to the door, it then disappears on the otherside behind new skirting in the livingroom. I think as you suggest the best option is to just lay a new length of cable but will stick to running it along the skirting rather than behind it for future purposes, the last thing I want to do is rip the new skirting out?
Another quick question...
I've currently got the two blue/white wires connected to points A/B on the master socket and the phone plugged into the master socket works. I've noticed on some diagrams that there is one blue/white and one orange/white connected to terminals A/B and then there is three cables connected to points 2,3,5 which lead to the extension. I'm a little confused as to what the correct incoming combination of wires should be and maybe it is this that is causing the problem?
I've currently got the two blue/white wires connected to points A/B on the master socket and the phone plugged into the master socket works. I've noticed on some diagrams that there is one blue/white and one orange/white connected to terminals A/B and then there is three cables connected to points 2,3,5 which lead to the extension. I'm a little confused as to what the correct incoming combination of wires should be and maybe it is this that is causing the problem?
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Not quite convinced on the using a pair comment? As long as I'm using the same two wires at the master socket and the same two wires at the extension then there should be no problem because after all they are only wires? I know it is the common case of using the same pairs as it is an easy reference. There is only one blue/white cable as mentioned in my earlier post, that's why I believe the original installer used the two orange/white cable instead.”
“Not quite convinced on the using a pair comment? As long as I'm using the same two wires at the master socket and the same two wires at the extension then there should be no problem because after all they are only wires? I know it is the common case of using the same pairs as it is an easy reference. There is only one blue/white cable as mentioned in my earlier post, that's why I believe the original installer used the two orange/white cable instead.”
The pairs are twisted together. This gives a degree of immunity to crosstalk and noise. If you were to use, say, the orange/white and brown/white wires it would still work but you could suffer a bit more noise and interference. best to stick to the pairings wherever possible.
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“The cabling is running along the top of the skirting board the length of the hallway and then it is fed throught the wall adjasent to the door, it then disappears on the otherside behind new skirting in the livingroom. I think as you suggest the best option is to just lay a new length of cable but will stick to running it along the skirting rather than behind it for future purposes, the last thing I want to do is rip the new skirting out?”
“The cabling is running along the top of the skirting board the length of the hallway and then it is fed throught the wall adjasent to the door, it then disappears on the otherside behind new skirting in the livingroom. I think as you suggest the best option is to just lay a new length of cable but will stick to running it along the skirting rather than behind it for future purposes, the last thing I want to do is rip the new skirting out?”
I would lay odds that whoever nailed the new skirting board over the top of the cable stuck at least one nail through the wire. As you say probably easier to lay in a new cable than rip out the skirting
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Another quick question...
I've currently got the two blue/white wires connected to points A/B on the master socket and the phone plugged into the master socket works. I've noticed on some diagrams that there is one blue/white and one orange/white connected to terminals A/B and then there is three cables connected to points 2,3,5 which lead to the extension. I'm a little confused as to what the correct incoming combination of wires should be and maybe it is this that is causing the problem?”
“Another quick question...
I've currently got the two blue/white wires connected to points A/B on the master socket and the phone plugged into the master socket works. I've noticed on some diagrams that there is one blue/white and one orange/white connected to terminals A/B and then there is three cables connected to points 2,3,5 which lead to the extension. I'm a little confused as to what the correct incoming combination of wires should be and maybe it is this that is causing the problem?”
The wire on pin 3 is the bell wire. It is only ever used for extensions never for the incoming BT cable.
If you look at the circuit diagram for a master socket you'll see a capacitor wired between one of the line pair and pin 3. This sends the ringing signal to the "bell" on the phone (hence the name). Extension sockets don't usually have this capacitor so the one in the master socket is extended out as well.
Most modern phones don't need it and ring perfectly happily with just the line pair (2 & 5). It can cause interference to broadband as well.
The easy way to check if it's needed is to leave it off the extension cable and dial the number. If the extensions ring it's not needed. If they don't, re-attach the wire and dial again to make sure they do ring.
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/a...d1966/nte5.jpg
This is what I'm referring to. As you can see the two wires coming in from outside are blue/white & orange/white which are connected to points A&B and the other wires for the extension include the second white/blue wire?? confused
This is what I'm referring to. As you can see the two wires coming in from outside are blue/white & orange/white which are connected to points A&B and the other wires for the extension include the second white/blue wire?? confused
Originally Posted by chrisjr:
“Most modern phones don't need it and ring perfectly happily with just the line pair (2 & 5). It can cause interference to broadband as well.”
“Most modern phones don't need it and ring perfectly happily with just the line pair (2 & 5). It can cause interference to broadband as well.”
This is what confused me as I believed the line pair were blue/white, white/blue??
Originally Posted by chrisjr:
“The pairs are twisted together. This gives a degree of immunity to crosstalk and noise. If you were to use, say, the orange/white and brown/white wires it would still work but you could suffer a bit more noise and interference. best to stick to the pairings wherever possible.
I would lay odds that whoever nailed the new skirting board over the top of the cable stuck at least one nail through the wire. As you say probably easier to lay in a new cable than rip out the skirting”
“The pairs are twisted together. This gives a degree of immunity to crosstalk and noise. If you were to use, say, the orange/white and brown/white wires it would still work but you could suffer a bit more noise and interference. best to stick to the pairings wherever possible.
I would lay odds that whoever nailed the new skirting board over the top of the cable stuck at least one nail through the wire. As you say probably easier to lay in a new cable than rip out the skirting
”
The initial pair that were used were both orange/white&white/orange, which I thought would be ok to use for the extension as there was the missing blue/white wire.
I think at the end of the day it will be wise to install a fresh cable but the post above which has the photo attached to it is stopping me from continuing. As long as I know the correct wires ie blue/white&white/blue or something else
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/a...d1966/nte5.jpg
This is what I'm referring to. As you can see the two wires coming in from outside are blue/white & orange/white which are connected to points A&B and the other wires for the extension include the second white/blue wire?? confused”
“http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/a...d1966/nte5.jpg
This is what I'm referring to. As you can see the two wires coming in from outside are blue/white & orange/white which are connected to points A&B and the other wires for the extension include the second white/blue wire?? confused”
Hang on one second.
There are two NTE5 backing plates shown in that photo but only one face plate. What is going on there?
Are there two BT lines into the property or what? And if there are what idiot wired them up like that!?! If you are going to wire two lines then you use the blue pair for one and the orange pair for the second.
Also that incoming cable does not look like normal BT external cable so there must be a jointing box somewhere where the external cable terminates.
Can't see anything wrong with the extension wiring however. The blue pair are correctly on 2 and 5 (there are no 1 and 6 by the way just to confuse you
) with the orange pair on 3 and 4.
Originally Posted by chrisjr:
“Hang on one second.
There are two NTE5 backing plates shown in that photo but only one face plate. What is going on there?
Are there two BT lines into the property or what? And if there are what idiot wired them up like that!?! If you are going to wire two lines then you use the blue pair for one and the orange pair for the second.
Also that incoming cable does not look like normal BT external cable so there must be a jointing box somewhere where the external cable terminates.
Can't see anything wrong with the extension wiring however. The blue pair are correctly on 2 and 5 (there are no 1 and 6 by the way just to confuse you) with the orange pair on 3 and 4.”
“Hang on one second.
There are two NTE5 backing plates shown in that photo but only one face plate. What is going on there?
Are there two BT lines into the property or what? And if there are what idiot wired them up like that!?! If you are going to wire two lines then you use the blue pair for one and the orange pair for the second.
Also that incoming cable does not look like normal BT external cable so there must be a jointing box somewhere where the external cable terminates.
Can't see anything wrong with the extension wiring however. The blue pair are correctly on 2 and 5 (there are no 1 and 6 by the way just to confuse you
) with the orange pair on 3 and 4.”
Sorry to confuse you but that photo is not of the current wiring but one I got from the net
It is showing the two different style plates and the one on the right is the one that is at the old ladies house. It has confused me because it has the blue/white and orange/white cables connected to A&B, but from what you say the extension is ok.
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“ It has confused me because it has the blue/white and orange/white cables connected to A&B,”
“ It has confused me because it has the blue/white and orange/white cables connected to A&B,”
That is often the case. I suspect that there is a junction box upstream of the Master Socket where a length of standard internal cable has been connected to the drop wire.
Having said that, whoever did it should still have used a pair.
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Sorry to confuse you but that photo is not of the current wiring but one I got from the net It is showing the two different style plates and the one on the right is the one that is at the old ladies house. It has confused me because it has the blue/white and orange/white cables connected to A&B, but from what you say the extension is ok.”
“Sorry to confuse you but that photo is not of the current wiring but one I got from the net
It is showing the two different style plates and the one on the right is the one that is at the old ladies house. It has confused me because it has the blue/white and orange/white cables connected to A&B, but from what you say the extension is ok.”
Ah well at least it's not you who has to wear the dunces hat then
Ignore the idiotic wiring of the incoming line. If it was real BT wiring then it would either use "outdoor" cabling which may have different colour cores or use "indoor" cable back to a junction box. No sober Openreach engineer would ever wire it like those examples though.
By the way the extensions only really need 2 and 5. 3 may be needed if the phones are really old and cannot generate their own ringing from just the line pair. 4 is an earth connection and I have only ever seen it used on private switchboards for functions like recall, divert etc. Never seen it used domestically so best to ignore 4.
Ok, so it's blue/white or visa versa in a pair that should be to terminals marked A&B and then on terminal 2&5 should be the same pair going to the extension ie either orange or blue pair. In this case there is no blue pair only a single so it would have to be the orange pair. I think it will be better all round if I just remove the old cabling and install a fresh new cable thus elliminating any shorted out cable between the master and extension faceplates?
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Ok, so it's blue/white or visa versa in a pair that should be to terminals marked A&B and then on terminal 2&5 should be the same pair going to the extension ie either orange or blue pair. In this case there is no blue pair only a single so it would have to be the orange pair. I think it will be better all round if I just remove the old cabling and install a fresh new cable thus elliminating any shorted out cable between the master and extension faceplates?”
“Ok, so it's blue/white or visa versa in a pair that should be to terminals marked A&B and then on terminal 2&5 should be the same pair going to the extension ie either orange or blue pair. In this case there is no blue pair only a single so it would have to be the orange pair. I think it will be better all round if I just remove the old cabling and install a fresh new cable thus elliminating any shorted out cable between the master and extension faceplates?”
DO NOT go anywhere near the A & B pair. If the NTE is the demarcation point for Openreach then it cannot be touched by anybody except an open reach engineer.
Technically even removing the backing plate of the NTE is against the rules. The only bit a customer is allowed to play with is the removable front panel.
But if there is a line terminating point elsewhere in the house which has a customer side wired out to the NTE then you can do what you like. It all depends on where the BT line actually terminates.
But all you need worry about is the extension cable. As you say best plan is to run new cable in. You can get the cable in several places, I believe even B&Q sell it. One thing though make sure you have the proper tool to insert the cable into the terminal blocks. You can get cheap plastic devices that are good for a few dozen terminations which would do for a simple job like this. But don't try to force the wires in with a screwdriver. That can end up damaging the terminals and make the joint dodgy or even fail to grip the wire and make contact at all.
Leave the incoming line well alone for two good reasons.
There is 50V DC on it all the time which will give you a bit of a tingle if you hang yourself across it. And if someone rings it you WILL feel the 75V AC ringing voltage
There speaks the voice of experience
Hmmm, first stumbling block. There was an old master socket already at the womans house and the first thing I done was change it for an open reach master as I had one gathering dust! Anyway I connected the blue pair of wires to the points already mentioned as that was the pair that was connected to the incoming terminals already and that is how it is currently standing. I have one of the proper tools to do the job and have placed an order online for 2 pair cable and will set out installing the new run when it arrives. I have already had a jolt and was shocked to say the least that there was that amount of leccy being generated. Lesson learned on that one! Will make sure the extension is working as it should and then go about securing the cable to the walls with clips
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Hmmm, first stumbling block. There was an old master socket already at the womans house and the first thing I done was change it for an open reach master as I had one gathering dust! Anyway I connected the blue pair of wires to the points already mentioned as that was the pair that was connected to the incoming terminals already and that is how it is currently standing. I have one of the proper tools to do the job and have placed an order online for 2 pair cable and will set out installing the new run when it arrives. I have already had a jolt and was shocked to say the least that there was that amount of leccy being generated. Lesson learned on that one! Will make sure the extension is working as it should and then go about securing the cable to the walls with clips”
“Hmmm, first stumbling block. There was an old master socket already at the womans house and the first thing I done was change it for an open reach master as I had one gathering dust! Anyway I connected the blue pair of wires to the points already mentioned as that was the pair that was connected to the incoming terminals already and that is how it is currently standing. I have one of the proper tools to do the job and have placed an order online for 2 pair cable and will set out installing the new run when it arrives. I have already had a jolt and was shocked to say the least that there was that amount of leccy being generated. Lesson learned on that one! Will make sure the extension is working as it should and then go about securing the cable to the walls with clips”
Well I won't tell Openreach if you don't
But if it was wired with the same type of cable as the extensions I reckon there must be a terminal block upstream of the socket where it joins onto the external cable. So you may get away with it The standing 50V DC is not too bad. But you certainly know when someone rings the line!
Got round to installing a new length of cabling and the line is fully up and running. I lifted up the carpet divider which was under the door of the living room and the cable was smashed to a pulp, obviously as mentioned before it looks like the carpet fitters caused the damage. The lady of the house is getting in touch with the company to lodge a complaint. She also had someone else round to inspect the lines etc before I came along and was told it was just one of those things and that maybe the phones she had weren't working properly. She went out and bought a new cordless set and obviously had the same problems. But all is now fixed and she has a fully working phone line, extensions and all
Originally Posted by sinbrad:
“Got round to installing a new length of cabling and the line is fully up and running. I lifted up the carpet divider which was under the door of the living room and the cable was smashed to a pulp, obviously as mentioned before it looks like the carpet fitters caused the damage. The lady of the house is getting in touch with the company to lodge a complaint. She also had someone else round to inspect the lines etc before I came along and was told it was just one of those things and that maybe the phones she had weren't working properly. She went out and bought a new cordless set and obviously had the same problems. But all is now fixed and she has a fully working phone line, extensions and all”
“Got round to installing a new length of cabling and the line is fully up and running. I lifted up the carpet divider which was under the door of the living room and the cable was smashed to a pulp, obviously as mentioned before it looks like the carpet fitters caused the damage. The lady of the house is getting in touch with the company to lodge a complaint. She also had someone else round to inspect the lines etc before I came along and was told it was just one of those things and that maybe the phones she had weren't working properly. She went out and bought a new cordless set and obviously had the same problems. But all is now fixed and she has a fully working phone line, extensions and all
”
A portion of the blame also lies with whoever lay the cable under the carpet in the first place. Rather than do the job properly and take it round the door frame.
As I said earlier, running a cable under the carpet only hides the damage. It is actually possible that the cable was on it's way out before the carpet fitters finished it off.
