most gay men and women don't kiss or hold hands in public. especially not most black gay men who have other cultural pressures to deal with.

while some progress has been made we continue to live in a world where in some countries queers are simply exterminated or imprisoned.

unelightened attitudes from powerfully influential world leaders don't help. for instance bush wanting to change the american constitution in opposition to gay marriage, or the pope recently describing us as evil.

mental health statistics for lesbians and gaymen today paint a picture of a disproportionate level of problems that arise from growing up as second class citizens.

Bizarrely enough, I have to police myself in order to avoid being attacked too. I have to take particular routes home at night and avoid certain areas. On a similar note, I thought it was quite strange Kitten trying to lecture a group about oppression and call them ignorant (during the plate painting) when the the group actually contained two men who could be singled out for oppression purely for the colour of their skin. The overwhelming majority of oppressed gay people cannot be singled out quite as easily as this.


There is a massive preponderance towards depression and suicide in the young male community full stop. You could say that young women are the new growth area in binge drinking and violence. In fact, you can pull out various facts to support other sections of the populace that have worrying attributes to.


It's obvious that one man's fresh air is another man's smog.

Biomorph, it may be true that we live in a world where in some countries gay men & women are exterminated & imprisoned. I would guess that these countries we speak of are prolly the same ones where women get castrated, or beaten for not covering their ankles properly.

Ok, I get that. But I'm discussing the world in which you & I live in. Many of my friends are gay (I'm not acting like Marco here), and I can personally tell you that not ONE of them apologizes for or compromises on his/her lifestyle.

I think there's a lot of generalisation going on here.

Rubbish! I was there in the early 80s, in CND - I met a lot of people pretty similar to Kitten, who all worked their socks off to try and make the British people aware of the danger cruise missiles were. People like her care - they have not been overcome by apathy like others.

Again, you can hang these kinds of facts on various elements of society. Young men of any sexuality are more prone to depression and suicide. Poorer people in the north are more likely to get ill, get poorer treatment and respond to the treatment than the affluent in the South East. Whilst I'm not denying the things you say, you like paint a very one sided picture of marginalisation and oppression.

You miss the point entirely. There would have been no CND without people like Kitten.

Look - the girl's a cretin who's incapable of formulating a decent argument, acts in a pathetic petulant manner, who rants constantly, cares little for others - and when her actions apparently jeopardise others - she refuses to accept blame.

much of this, as you know, was gone over in the thread titled "raging great homophobes".

in that thread everytime i presented a counterargument to claims that implied "everything is rosey for gays today, queer oppression is ancient history" i'd be slapped down by implications that i was singling out gays for special treatment.

i try to remain on topic, and i am unable to write encyclopedic posts that demonstrate my awareness and active role in combatting all social injustices. i also do not believe that i should have to demonstrate my active contribution and awareness to all injustices before anyone will take on board that gay oppression is still a powerful poison in today's society.

i often feel, (more particularly in that previously mentioned thread), that i am being told by forum members to not only know my place within heirachical society and put up with it, but that i should also know my place within a heirachy of oppression and must wait my turn to speak.

So?

She's still representative of the great British people who protested in the 70s and 80s.

Have you ever organised anything like that? Do you have any idea how much work was involved?

I do, and it was people like Kitten who were doing it.

Hmmm....

I assume you referring to people in the 70's and 80's protesting about things like nuclear weapons, prejudice, the miners, poll tax etc...

Kitten used her moment in the sun - with the chance to make a point to millions of people - by climbing on the roof to protest against an authoritarian figure on a TV show that she chose to go on, knowing full well what it would be like.

She really is doing your legacy proud!

doubtless you won't find it acceptable that i'm saying this, but for anyone outside of a minority group there is simply too much that occurs below your well intentioned radar.

there are poisons that don't push your buttons and thus go un noticed and are undiscussed between you and your gay friends.

many gays don't feel oppresessed because they have adapted to the oppression and forget it is affecting them. just as many women once upon a time accepted their second class citizenship and would even claim they were happy.

the world we all live in is this one world. a world of religious inspired intolerance and hate. a world where my gay neighbour had knives poked through his letterbox and his frontdoor was doused in petrol and set on fire because he is gay.

Oh and I've been meaning to say how impressed I was when asked what her political orientation was she wasn't sure if she was an anarchist or a socialist.

For someone who describes themselves as a 'political person' - surely it might help if they knew what their politics were?

Craig - No, I disagree. The great British people who protested in the 70s and 80s would have used this opportunity given to Kitten as a way of bringing about change in social injustices - not just sit around calling themselves 'activists' while pulling childish pranks just to prove what 'radicals' they are.

Kitten doesn't have a clue. She herself admitted she acted like a 12 year old. Her shining moment? 'this is for the Queen and the aristocracy'

Give me a break. Being an immature defiant child does not make one a political activist.
Last edited by Jazmin : 05-06-2004 at 12:33

she used her moment in the sun as an attempt to remind people that its ok to disobey.

labels are for clothes

Yes.


In that house, with it's nursery school rules - no writing materials, I don't see anything more she could have done really.

No-one is claiming she is a great philosopher or strategist - but her heart is clearly in the right place and I'd imagine in real life she is quite prepared to put the hard work in to make protests happen, instead of just talking about things.

But I can tell you it was precisely 'immature defiant children' like Kitten (if that is what she is) who were the backbone of those protests. I took part in one Youth CND week-long march to the Labour Party Conference, and there were a lot of Kitten's on that one. Very nice, caring people they were too. Hard working in the cause as well - they were the ones shouting the slogans, asking the public in the towns we passed through to sign petitions and make donations, doing all the boring logistical stuff behind the scenes - while the interllectuals stayed at the back of the march, silent but feeling very clever.

Better to be an 'immature defiant child' than an apathetic one

(don't mean you btw!)

Kitten thinks she cares about all these causes. But actually she's just angry and seeking attention, and wouldn't be happy unless she was trying to cause trouble.

Anyone who was anti-establishment would not be saying "no war", since the war on Iraq rid it of one of the world's most oppressive dictators and gave power back to its citizens. It also saved countless lives. Saddam killed and tortured about a million people in his 25 year reign. That's about 110 lives saved per day, and 40,000 in the last year alone.

The only people who opposed the war were people who thought red tape was more important than saving humans from torture and death. Hardly something a confessed activist would support.

Hrmm, so even if people don't feel opressed, they are? Perhaps you should tell them they're opressed!

Listen, I watched my best friend (of my whole life) come out as a lesbian & embrace her new life. I was there for her throughout her whole transition. And let me tell you, the only oppression she's felt was her own for not coming out sooner. She walks down the street with her girlfriend just like anyone else.

I think you're confusing what I'm saying a bit. I'm not saying there aren't prejudices in this world. I'm not saying there are no homophobes left. What I am saying is that we have come a long way from the unaccepting people we one were to become (for the most part) a gay-friendly world. Is there more to do? Absolutely.

Will & Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, Gay Pride parades, Gay days at Disney world in America. These are only a few signs that things have changed - that gay people are accepted & welcomed memebers of society.

What use is a protest if you're mentally incapable of getting across your reasons for protesting?

Reporter: "So what are all you people here to protest?"
Kitten: "Well yeah, like it's umm. You know. We're like protesting, yeah."
Reporter: " Well duh, you idiot, we can see that buit what are you protesting about?"
Kitten: "You're like, umm, yeah you see, you're all so ignorant!! STOP OPPRESSING ME!!!"
Reporter: "And so from this small farm in wales with lots of people outside for no reason, it's back to you in the studio"

Ok, I get what you're saying - I do. But my problem with Kitten really is the fact that she didn't seem to stand for anything in particular. It was more of a 'I'm going to revolt against the man just so I look cool'. There was no conviciton in what she was saying - for if there was, she would have milked the medium of her being on tv as a platform to bring about some real change & spread her enlightened words & pov to the nation.

She didn't do that

To me, it was being defiant for defiant's sake, and nothing more. And that's why I don't see her as an effective 'activist'. Sure, she can be a good protester in the sake of making noise & getting signatures. But as a grown woman, who labels herself a 'political activist' - I just don't see it

Are you for real ? "lackeys of global corporatism" !! Most of us have been watching a tacky, ratings lead reality TV gameshow that panders to our lowest common denominators. We come here to express our opinions of the "contestants" .
I can always pop down to the local Tube if I want to be lectured on the correct political attitude to have.

Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is not exactly promoting an equal picture of gay men, is it? The name of the show alone suggests that gay men have superior taste to straight men. Can you imagine a "White Literacy for the Black Guy" show, where a bunch of white men teach a black man to better spoken English? (I'm not an American, but I've heard many Americans say they think black people are not as articulate as white people.)

The very best kind of people to organise any protest, mass or otherwise.


Are you having a laugh? I hope so.

yes. just as women needed to "raise the consciousness" of other women in the past.

i have had a week of forum thread battles implying that we're all living over the rainbow today. and if i seem to be confrontational with you individually or dissing your remarks i apologise.

my point is, especially for people outside of the gay "community", to point out that the improvements in life today tends to gag any awareness of the underlying poison that continues to screw up too many people's lives.