I know that I have posted the epg problems on this site since the last ota update but this series link issue is now most irritating and I wonder whether it is just my 2 boxes, 9150 and 9200 or is this a v.23 bug? Mostly it seems to relate to the the itv soaps. I'll put say, Corrie and Emmerdale (sad or what) on s/l. Initially they will appear in both the recording schedule and also flagged on the epg and then for whatever reason one or both will become "unflagged" on the epg but still remain in the schedule. This means to say that using s/l for holiday purposes cannot be trusted. Am I just unlucky or have others also experienced these issues? I've tried restoring to defaults on both machines but so far no luck.

Peter

I think this is a fairly widely reported problem (and we have seen problems with Coronation Street) and my suspiscion is that for the particular cases you quote the problem is with ITV and not with the Humax. Hopefully now that the World Cup is over they will get a grip of things and nornal service will be resumed.

I been getting problem where it records first 1 minute of Corrie then showing in recording and then the rest of Corrie I suspect this id down to ITV

But more than one occasion I have had this problem woo where it says it cant record due to conflict, its happen more than once now where it appears it will only record one program at a time. I have corrie and fake Britain followed by eastenders on tonight but it said cant record due to conflict. I had to do yet another default reset to sort this out and now its okay but when I updated the firmware 6 weeks or so back I did a full default reset

You can usually sort this out by cancelling and then rescheduling the conflicting recordings (assuming that they really don't overlap). I agree with you that the root cause is likely to be ITV not being able to manage their meta data.

Series link failed again tonight on


Mary, Queen of Shops

I set it to record on series on Sunday night after a default reset, it did record corrie and eastenders but Mary, Queen of Shops it missed first 20 minutes of it it came on time although I didnt watch it until part through but recording came on later

I had to watch it on iplayer due to failed recordings

Theses problems seem to have occurred with world cup started before that it was fine for a few weeks when I got the new update to fix the dodgy slow remote

I've followed the advice of deleting the ITV schedules and adding them in again (Whole series).

Slight improvement in that one of last nights Corrie's recorded (whereas from previous experience it would have recorded 1 minute of it previously), but the second one made no attempt to record.

Looking through the EPG none of the rest were until I went through the procedure again.

Yet again no recording of Corrie

I got it recording waterloo road but it wont allow series with that and any other recording in schedule due to conflict yet there is only ever one recording

I have done several default resets and it doesnt appear it now likes to record two programs at once


http://www.wowimages.net/files/kwnuf5cu0yyp925qh7yq.jpg

Hi

We gave up on series link on the Humax a long time ago. When you add in the Humax's bug of suddenly deleting a series linked schedule and the fact the data in the EPG can often be wrong in some way, and that accurate recording signals can fail or cause clipped recordings, it simply isn't worth the hassle!

Series link/accurate recording seems to work better when the schedules are fairly static and there are no sports or short notice extended news programs, but then those are the same times you don't need it anyway! As soon as something happens (World Cup last minute schedule changes for example) to test the system and make it of some use, it all goes pair shaped. So what is the point of it? PDC was exactlly the same on VCRs.

We use 3 minutes of pre and 5 minutes of post padding on the Humax (so disabling EPG tracking, series link and accurate recording) and seldom ever lose a recording, can't remember the last time this happened. Yes you have to pop into the guide every few days and set the next epiosodes of a series (and pay a bit more attention when things like the world cup are on), but that also gives you opportunity while browsing the guide to see what else is on.

Regards

Phil

I have spoken to the right people at ITV and asked them to have a look at their schedules and processes to address the issue.

Bob did you include Freesat and especially Coronation Street on the HD channels in the conversation ?

Strike this just read your post in the Freesat+ forum. Thanks for ypur efforts

Bob

Many thanks Bob

I cant rely on my Humax 9200 now fortunately I do have the Humax freesat pvr but other half is unable to switch tv over as it wont autoswitch

Hi


Nothing will change, I've had the same conversations and the "right noises" made some 10 or 15 years ago when PDC was promised as the end of missed programs but proved just as flaky. Eventually the BBC's recommendation was not to use and pad recordings by 10 minutes.

The commercial TV companies make no money from accurate recording or by providing series link and up to date EPG information. They don't like PVRs for obvious reasons so why would they spend money to make it reliable?

In fact they don't care about viewers enjoying programs at all, and think nothing of spoiling our viewing with logos, credit squeeze and the worse of the lot, "Next" banners that interrupt your viewing during the last minutes of a program. Channel 4 squeeze and distort the whole picture with their next banners, truly horrible.

So if you think a complaint will fix issues with EPG data, you might be waiting a long time, and with the current economic climate and cost cutting, if anything it will get worse.

Regards

Phil

I disagree. Series link is pretty much flawless on Sky's platform and has been for as long as the Sky EPG has supported it (many years now). We time shift everything we watch and that's five or six hours every evening from Sky. On rare occasions a recording won't play back but it's extremely unusual for Series Link to fail or a recording to be 'missed'. It's still down to the broadcasters to provide the EPG data so no different in that respect. It's possible that their contracts with Sky include penalty clauses for bad EPG information but it still proves that they are capable of doing the job properly.

I don't see why that shouldn't be the case on Freesat and Freeview. The broadcasters just need to treat those platforms with the same respect.

Hi


Exactly, people pay to have Sky.

Regards

Phil

I'm sorry, "Series link is pretty much flawless on Sky's platform . . . " ? B0ll@cks it is! It's a heck of a lot better than on Freeview+ but it's far from being flawless. Even on Sky's flagship Sky1 & 2 channels if there are two programs from the same series on consecutively you'll often find that the split happens part way into the second episode. (Please note the word "often" in there as it doesn't always happen) SyFy is pretty bad at starting on time and CBS Drama is the same. I'm sure I've had similar problems with Alibi and Watch as well, but I'm not recording anything on them right now and the brain is not what it once was . . .

Anyway, the Sky series link works better because Sky controls the EPG and presumably has some punitive clauses in the channels' contracts to make them provide accurate data to Sky and stick more closely to their schedules.

If the non-BBC broadcasters on Freeview wised up and started flagging the start of a program at the beginning of the last advert before the programme and flagged the end of a program at the end of the first ad after the programme finished then a) more people would see their ads, and b) they could probably charge the advertisers more for those two ad slots and we'd get to see the whole program. If they then stopped all those darned on-screen logos and ads during the programs and broadcast at reasonable resolutions and bitrates so the picture actually looks OK on your big Digital flatscreen telly that cost several hundreds of pounds then even more people would watch their channels rather than just waiting for the DVD boxsets to come out! 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Sorry! Rant over

But it doesn't work that way!

There is no such thing as a start or stop signal. The Humax goes into record when the reserved programme becomes the "Now" programme and stops recording when the "Next" programme becomes "Now". All the ads etc. will fall into one or other slot.

Yes, technically there is no such thing as a start or stop signal, but each programme has an ID which starts and stops the recording so the broadcasters could give an advert either side of the programme the same ID so they are incorporated within each programme.
If I remember rightly ITV did start doing this some time ago when Freeview Playback first rolled out after complaints of missing starts and ends of programmes, but seems to of stopped doing it with the start of some progs ie Mondays and Fridays 1st episode of Corrie is fine, but 2nd episode nearly always starts after the opening credits.

No! No! NO! I don't want that at all. Freeview+ provides Accurate Recording functionality which I find is perfectly acceptable on my Vestel PVR. Why should owners of all other PVRs have to suffer un-necessary padding at the start of their recordings to cover the shortcomings of Humax Freeview PVRs.

The "flagging" of the start and end of programmes does not work in the way you assume. There are no distinct start and stop flags as such. The data to control Accurate Recording is broadcast continuously in the EITp/f (Now/Next) data stream. The start of a programme is indicated when the status of the data changes to show the subject programme as the "present" (Now) programme and end is indicated by the data changing to show the "future" (Next) programme as the current programme. The PVR detects these status changes and uses this to control recordings. So if the broadcaster set the data to start the recording of a programme at the start of the advert break (which is really part of the previous programme) then it follows that the recording will end prematurely by an amount equal to advert break at the end of the subject programme. This will increase the probability of lost endings. Effectively shifting the programme forward from it's scheduled time will also increase the probability clashes with other recordings which more closely follow their scheduled times.

ITV did introduce a policy of including the previous programmes advert break in it's EITp/f data. They implemented it in Feb 2008 but fortunately it was short lived. I would assume this was due to pressure from the DTG and/or protests from users. I think it was a stupid idea personally as it should have been obvious that PVRs users are unlikely to view the adverts as they do have FF controls on their unit.

Colin

Edit:- Ooops! , sorry for the duplication of information. TimA-C's post annoyed me so much I had to reply immediately without reading the rest of the thread.

It was quite some time after Accurate Recording was introduced in Phase 2 of Freeview Playback (now called Freeview+) that ITV started the policy. Series Record came later in Phase 3. I think the ITV policy was simply a misguided attempt at increasing advert viewing time. I can't see how anyone should be permitted to sabotage one of the main benefits of Freeview+.

ITV seem to have now adopted a bizarre policy on the evenings soaps. For some time now (at least since Nov 2009) they have been specifying the start of these programmes precisely at the junction between the programme sponsor message and the theme music starting. This means that the sponsor message at this point is not recorded which I would I would imagine the sponsors would not be happy about.

The apparent later starts on the Humax Freeview PVRs are due to the delayed response of the PVR to the EITp/f data. This is more noticeable on the second episodes because they have shorter theme tune introductions, about 25s on the earlier episodes and about 6s on the second ones.

Colin

I know that the Humax uses changes in the now/next data stream to detect the beginning of a programme and the beginning of a new programme (couldn't that also be looked at as the end of the current programme?) and I don't really care! There's a mechanism that is used by the Humax to determine when a programme starts and when it finishes and that mechanism is controlled by the broadcasters, correct? I'm SO sorry I wasn't pedantic enough for some (all?) of you!

As for moaning about 30seconds or so at the beginning and end of each recording . . . ? Are you SUCH an important or busy person that an extra minute per recording is going to make such a dent in your schedule? As you rightly pointed out, MOST PVR owners will use their FF or advert skip buttons to avoid the ads, but not all PVR users will. Besides, if no one watches any ads then the advertisers won't pay to put their ads on, the channel's revenue will drop, we'll get even cr@ppier TV programmes than we do now, even fewer people will watch, even fewer advertisers will put their ads on, revenues drop even further, etc. etc. until eventually the channel either goes bust or goes to subscription only. Or gets bought up by somebody (probably Sky) and gets turned into yet another shopping channel or a gay badger chat channel (and before you ask, no, I have nothing against gay badgers!) or a late night tiddly-winks game channel for drunks who don't realise that it's £5 a call and very little chance of even getting to play let alone winning the star prize which is probably going to be something like a £3.50 ring tone of the crazy frog singing "Tiddle-me-winks" for what seems like 4 hours!
Last edited by TimA-C : 18-07-2010 at 11:43

Series Link is a tricky business for broadcasters and ALL platform operators. I agree with others that the Sky service is far from perfect, though it has some nice features. Sky doesn't penalise broadcasters who get it wrong, but they do tend to monitor more closely the EPG data supplied, and its correctness wrt what's broadcast.

When schedules change at short notice, most broadcasters will update their EPG data...but then it's down to whether Freeview/Freesat/Sky update the EPG data quickly and properly. Since broadcasters are sending the platform operators 8-14 days of EPG data at a time, errors can occur if a late change gets sent with incorrect future data.

You are then reliant on how the set top box software interprets and uses the EPG datastream, and whether it responds properly to "revised" data.

And for broadcasters, there are issues. If a viewer chooses to record a repeat of a programme, and applies a series link, what would you expect the link to apply to?? ... the 'same' repeat broadcast next week, or the first transmission of the 'next' programme in the series? [Different viewers will have different preferences ... some will deliberately always want to see/record the series at the same time every week, others will expect to get the first tx of the new programme]. But a series link can only be coded to ONE of these.

Another problem is that (I think on all platforms), series link cannot anticipate a "programmes clashed" conflict. It's only when the box tries to start the third simultaneous recording (or the second, if the viewer is watching live TV on another channel) that the box signals a clash.. and invites the viewer to choose what to do about it. If you're not watching at the time, tough - the box chooses some default, and a recording failure occurs. If your box is "on", but tuned to another channel, even though the TV is off, you might get a programme clashed failure, without knowing why. The box didn't know that nobody was able to view the query re what to do!

Series Link is a great facility, but almost by definition is imperfect, and results will vary across boxes and platforms. Series Link can even be used by a broadcaster to link to a broadcast on another channel also controlled by the broadcaster, which is clever... but frustrating for a viewer who doesn't subscribe to the 'new' channel...

You could argue that the series link specs (and therefore data definitions) are flawed - but the solution is non-trivial, with a myriad of existing combinations of boxes/platforms.


PS: I'm more familiar with the Sky platform than the Freeview or Freesat platforms. Series Link on Sky is driven purely from the EPG data, and NOT from the Now/Next data in the programme stream. So we have different implementations across the platforms. Sky of course does allow the viewer to set a variable "start /end recording X minutes before/after the listed time" - which can be useful...but increases the risk of clashed failures, since adjacent programmes are then overlapping.

But you suggested in your post #16 (quoted above) that the brodcatser could change the control data in a way that is not compatible with the way the Now/Next (EITp/f) system works. You seem not to realise that the fundamental way the Now/Next system works is that the data changes to indicate the end of one programme and the start of the next programme. This is fundamental, not pedantic.

Consider the situation where the PVR is set to record two consecutive programmes on the same channel. Following your suggestion the first recording is terminated at the end of the first ad after the programme finished i.e. this advert break is included as part of the first recording. However, your suggestion requires that this same advert break is included at the start of the recording of the following programme i.e. the advert break would need to be recorded twice. This is simply not possible using the Freeview Now/Next system. To implement your suggestion would require independant start and stop signals for each programme
I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of any of that.

Colin

Hi


ITV like other TV companies will have some but overall little flexibility where they decide to trigger the recording (changing Now/Next), as it really depends on the equipment they are using as this data by and large is automatically played out. A long running drama or soap on ITV will have meta data on the "tape" itself so as soon as the program starts the signals go out. This would explain why Coronation Street starts at the very beginning of the program bypassing the sponsorship message.

Other programs may not have the META data to allow this automatic system to work, so it falls back to some other semi-automatic process, and so mistakes creep in or missing the end or the very start.

Of course when accurate recording (and EPG updating) is really required due to massive changes in the schedule then manual changes, human decision making and signalling need to be made, so it tends to all fall apart Evidence of this is getting the right 30 minute time slot or your program but you have instead the news program that replaced it, then the re-scheduled episode failing to record as they gave it a different series ID! These were the same problems that plagued PDC on analogue VCRs until the BBC recommended (even though it was there invention and baby) to stop using it!

Regards

Phil

Interesting idea ... although BSkyB don't have any channels of those types ...