Ok, in light of all the "Matt-bashing" going on in the press, about the ratings dip blagh blagh blagh, I think it's time some perspective was added. Lets compare both DT and MS's episodes for their first series and see how they rate (it's also a way to review some shocking episodes)

David Tennant

New Earth - another episode that was a nice way to start the series. 7/10

Tooth and Claw - hmm. Bit of a strange one, as watching it now it seems a bit surreal - DT gives a great performance though. 7/10

School Reunion - not one of the best episodes, really. Although it did reintroduce SJ and K9. 6/10

The Girl in the Fireplace - a lovely episode, felt so sorry for Tennant's doctor in the end! 8/10

The Rise of the Cyberman - I loved this episode. Really really did. Reintroduced the cybermen and good start of the two-parter. 8/10

Age of Steel - Another solid episode, nice to see Tennant battle the Cybermen - 8/10

The Idiots Lantern - as good as the last two were, this episode was awful. 5/10

The Impossible Planet - decent enough. Nothing special though, although the Ood were a bit weird. 7/10

The Satan's Pit - see above. 7/10

Love and Monsters - the worst episode of Who ever?? 4/10

Fear Her - The Doctor running up the steps to light the Olympic flame is an image that will burn my retinas forever. 6/10

Army of Ghosts - personally, I hate an end of series special that reintroduces characters we've already had a big chunk of the series devoted too. Nevertheless, this was an ok episode. 7/10

Doomsday - great episode. I loved it and I was actually heartbroken at the end. The battle between the Cybermen and the Daleks was epic. 9/10

Matt Smith

The Eleventh Hour - surely the best opening episode of New Who, probably just edging out Rose, but surely head and shoulders above anything Tennant's Doctor produced.
9/10

The Beast Below - ok, not the best, in all fairness, but the beauty of this series was it got stronger as it went on. 6/10

The Victory of the Daleks - read above. 6/10

The Time of Angels - quite a slow burner, but a good introduction to Flesh and Stone, and it had it's moments. 7/10

Flesh and Stone - gripping episode, I remember thinking that Matt's Doctor had arrived in this episode. 9/10

Vampires in Venice - decent enough episode, although it did pass me by. 7/10

Amy's Choice - Really unique episode, stands out as being away from the story arc and was really original. 8/10

The Hungry Earth - I was a bit miffed at this one, to be honest. It all seemed a bit pointless and the story could have been summed up in about 5 minutes. 6/10

Cold Blood - slow first half, brilliant second half. That's all I can say, really. 8/10

Vincent and The Doctor - Brilliant. That's enough. 10/10

The Lodger - thoroughly enjoyable episode, nice to see a bit of humour injected. 7/10

The Pandorica Opens - gripping, tense, well-acted, great twist, all you want from part 1 of a two parter. 9/10

The Big Bang - not quite as good as the opener, but still a great episode and left us with enough to be licking our lips at the thought of Matt's second series. 9/10

So. . . out of 130 . . .

DT: 89, an average of 6.8 per episode.
MS: 100, an average of 7.6 per episode.

Clearly, Matt's first series was better than David's. So why must the media continue bashing him and saying he's "lost 1.2 million" viewers and all this rubbish. Matt's episodes were better, plain and simple. In my opnion, of course (ps I deliberately exluded The Christmas Invasion, as I was basing it on the series, not the Christmas specials. I would have given it 8/10, though.)

Because the media in this country is positively evil.

What has the media bashing Matt got to do with David Tennant. So is this thread lets bash David instead?

The media are bashing Matt's Doctor in direct comparison to the popularity of David's Doctor - this isn't a 'bash DT' thread, this is a 'let's objectively and sensibly compare the two' thread.

Objectively?


Subjectively, surely!

But that was the conclusion of the objective grading of each episode in each series.

It was still objectively done, however it turned out.

I kind of agree with the ratings you've given. I'm on the side of the fence that didn't like 'Love and Monsters' very much. I did like the Satan Pit two-parter, though...very scary!

But its your opinion. Not getting at you, here, but sadly thats what all these scores are. Its sometimes depressing how different the wider audience feels when you and I see something as being very good, but they disagree.

Fortunately, I'm positive that the media is just being plain stupid on this occassion. They seem to ignore all timeshifts and focus on overnights, as long as it gives them a story that might worry people, or make others feel better for not liking Matt Smith.

And I feel that The Christmas Invasion was Tennant's equivalent of 'The Eleventh Hour', with a bit more nap-time...so this comparison isn't completely fair. New Earth didn't have to introduce a new Doctor or companion.

Like Matt Smith's phone-virus jobby at the end - along with the 'Basically...run' bit - Tennant had a similar 'wow' moment when he opened the TARDIS doors, had the (badly choreographed) sword fight and threw that satsuma at the button, plus the stand-off with Harriet Jones.

"Did you miss me?".

Plus, its the only Christmas special where the threat didn't happen 'because-it-was-Christmas-and-it-felt-right'. It was coincidence, so it felt more real (well, as real as a Who episode could be). In a sense, it could have been used as the Series 2 opener and not jar as much as 'Runaway Bride', 'Voyage' or 'Next Doctor' would have.

I'm clearly not understanding the process. Where do the episode ratings come from?

It looks like opinion to me so that's not objective, is it?

Whilst I agree that the media are very quick to be negative about the loss of viewer figures without investigating other contributing factors (e.g. bad weather, WM), this surely is not an objective way of looking at which series is better. To be fair, I enjoyed Matt Smith's first series more than I enjoyed David Tennants. However, as you stated yourself, it's an individual's opinion which is subjective.

At the end of the day, does it really matter. Matt has been popular enough, he got some raving reviews (just read the RT and this forum), and for a lot of people he has already become The Doctor. For those who still miss David Tennant, well that's understandable as well. The beauty of Doctor Who is that you invest in the main lead, it would be very sad if we just forgot that David has provided us with some very good stories over the last five years in my opinion obviously.

Sorry to me it looks subjective as well (and the OP even stated "in my opinion" at the end). If the gradings weren't given by the OP, then I would be interested where they came from. If they come from the OP then they are subjective and not objective.

New Earth - simple enough story, but outstanding for performances of David tennant and Billie Piper, and some great comedic touches. 7/10

Tooth and Claw - atmospheric, great script and great acting. 7/10

School Reunion - Return of SJ was handled brilliantly, but rest of story very much took a background role 6/10

Girl in the Fireplace - Sublime on every level, beautiful to watch, emotional, clever, SM at his best 10/10

Rise of the Cybermen - Great return for these and a clever way to reintroduce them to a new audience. Undoubtedly OTT at times (Lumic), but felt very "classic" Who 8/10

The Age of Steel - Became a bit of a running around coridoors type episode, and not up to 1st part of story, but again, looked fantastic 7/10

The Idiot's lantern - Loathed it when first on, though has improved every time I've rewatched. However, definitely the 1st real disappointment of Nu Who 4/10

The Impossible Planet - A classic. Looked awesome, the Ood are the best new "monsters" we've had and very few in the history of Who better. Atmospheric, genuinely scary 10/10

The Satan Pit - As above. Hard to find fault 10/10

Love & Monsters - An interesting, funny and original episode. Some wonderful dialogue, characters drawn so well in only 45 minutes, and some solid emotional depth 8/10

Fear Her - Interesting enough idea, but looked cheap, had some dodgy acting (and some very good), all round one of the very worst Who stories 2/10

Army of Ghosts - Pretty good episode in intself, great cliffhanger, alot of promise for part 2 7/10

Doomsday - Showed why multi-enemy stories hadn't been done before - they don't work! Both Cybermen and Daleks came off badly, both looked pretty inept. But a wonderful last 10 mins or so which were some of the best moments of Nu Who 8/10

so....94/130

The Eleventh Hour - Matt Smith and Karen Gillan both great, and their scenes together exceptional. However, a tame story, and a pretty normal start to an era - more time introducing, less time on a really good self-contained story 5/10

The Beast Below - A good story though felt very rushed, the Smilers were wasted, but a typically unusual SM plot 6/10

Victory of the Daleks - Worryingly, a 2nd consecutive episode that was woefully rushed. Could have made a great 2-parter, ultimately a fairly run of the mill 45 mins 6/10

Time of Angels - Epic, well made, stunning at times, 8/10

Flesh and Stone - Through the episode, my first feelings of irritation towards Amy's character grew. Contained the best and worst scenes of this series - best, when we saw the Angels moving, worst, that dreadful and best-forgotten last 5 mins (let's call it the f*** me scene). 7/10

Vampires of venice - looked great, some poor CGI let it down and it felt in general a bit of a timefiller 5/10

Amy's Choice - Interesting episode, again some bad CGI. Good solid acting from all though 7/10

The Hungry Earth - A traditional Who story, though I felt disappointed by the new Silurian design. 6/10

Cold Blood - A much better conclusion to this story. Great acting, looked fab for the most part and a voiceover (I love a good voiceover) 8/10

Vincent and the Doctor - Sublime. Beautiful acting, great script, and a strong emotional content. 9/10

The Lodger - One of the worst of Nu Who. Acting was fine, story felt very CBBC. 2/10

The Pandorica Opens - Epic and fun, silly and contrived, in equal measures, but a standard season finale 8/10

The Big Bang - Again, a standard season finale, and a satisfactory way for Matt's first season to end. 8/10

so...85/130

So for what it's worth (not much), I felt this series was poorer than DT's first (by almost a point per episode), but hey, still enjoyed it and it had some fine moments.

In hat case you will never ever get a truly objective grading - it will always be someone's opinion (or collection of opinions), which in turn are subjective. I don't really see your point in that case.

What I meant was he wasn't completely grading the DT episodes down as a minimal mark, and the MS episodes as high as possible - you can be objective when you are giving your opinion.

What's with all this Love and Monsters bashing. It's a really good episode, and there are several that are much worse: The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her, Daleks In Manhattan/Evolution Of The Daleks, 42, Voyage Of The Damned, Partners In Crime, Journey's End, The Next Doctor, Planet Of The Dead, and The End Of Time...

I'm not trying to argue with you but you stated that the ratings were objective and they aren't. Personal opinion doesn't prove anything.

All of the ratings out there are personal opinion.

Through no fault of Tennant's I have to say I rate series 2 the lowest of New Who. For the sublime episodes (Impossible Planet, Satan Pit) it did have some stinkers (Fear Her, LOM). LOM had potential, but any decent story was completly ruined by the sick vision of a "love life" with a slab of pavement. NOOOOOO!!!
In contrast, Matt Smith's first series didn't really have any stinkers. I wasn't too keen on the Silurian episodes but they were still better than the likes of Fear Her. The Eleventh Hour was superb and I loved the final and Matt Smith as the Doctor does make anything watchable.
All in all, series 5 was stronger, with the better stories and, dare I say, a stronger Doctor. Tennant does change alot after series 2, getting more comfortable with the role, becoming less manic and really making it his own. I loved every second of Tennant's Doctor from series 3 onwards. Matt Smith therefore I took some warming to, even though I did like his take from the start. One series in and I'm utterly sold. He dosen't deserve the stick he's getting; that should be given to the BBC and the damn World Cup. Rewatching series 5 is loads of fun and you begin to appreciate just how made for the part Matt Smith is. I can't wait to see him behind the bow tie again!!

Agreed so this -


- means very little.

Personally, I don't have an opinion either way. I like/dislike aspects of both series.

That's why nobody can really prove that one series is better than another, at least not objectively (which should be mind-independent).

That's why the papers and producers use viewing figures. Whilst the viewing figures are still based on the subjective likes and dislikes of the audience, at least the figures themselves can be analysed statistically. The problem with the viewing figures relates to the fact that hardly anyone ever takes other factors into account (e.g. weather etc.).

The same applies to polls, statistically speaking you could prove that one series is more popular then another using the voting on a poll. However, depending on your sample population, your poll could be very biased and thus still not objective. Nonetheless, asking 100 people which series is better and then calculating the average is still better than asking one person.

I feel I need to step in here.

First, I am sorry. It was my opinion, and mine alone, and so, to me, I feel the media are bashing MS too much, however, others will disagree. I should have stated that, "Clearly, TO ME, Matt's first series was better."

Can I state that they are my opinion alone. I should have stated in the thread that it asks people to offer their opinion.

Sorry for the confusion caused

No confusion - sorry to have hijacked your post! I was merely responding to Biba insinuating you were bashing DT, when it was clearly evident that you weren't...

A direct comparison with MS series 1 & DT series 1 sounds like IMO lets bash DT. I don't measure up series I just like the stories I like regardless of the series or the Doctor for that matter. If it wasn't lets bash DT why didn't you choose CE to compare 1st series, or even Tom Baker's 1st series.

To be fair though, comparing the new doctor with the last doctor makes kind of sense (if you are interested in comparisons!).

I can see why the OP gets fed up with the media and their need to favourably compare David Tennant to Matt Smith, however, turning it around and saying that Matt Smith is so much better than David Tennant is probably not helping either.

Each Doctor has their positive and negative aspects and good and bad stories (in my opinion), and they will thus appeal to different people.

Unlike some on this forum, I'm not totally anti-RTD (there are aspects of his era that I like a great deal), but I have to say that I cannot agree with you at all when it comes to the last ten minutes of Doomsday, which encapsulate everything I hated about the RTD era.

Although there was no story in Series 5 that I liked as much as Girl In The Fireplace, there was also no story in Series 5 that I disliked as much as Fear Her, New Earth, The Idiot's Lantern or Tooth And Claw. I will therefore have to agree with the OP that Series 5 was definitely better.

But, at the end of the day, it's all down to personal opinion.

I am very tempted to sit down and score Tennent's series like you have done. I think I have most of them still recorded on my PVR. Might do it if I can find the time it deserves.

Girl in the Fireplace was the first episode of New Who I thought could be described as a "classic". Its also the episode I use to convert people that say they don't like Doctor Who.

Mind you nothing on the planet could convince me to watch L&M again *shudders*

You ain't wrong there!!