Originally Posted by Herefordgirl:
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
Typical Grauniad, late as ever!
Sherlock - New BBC Drama
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I think the big clue is that Sherlock took a lot of high profile cases which he never normally does. Not sure ow it ties in though.
Watched it again, had an inkling about a minor plothole and it was confirmed on the second viewing - The time was all askew. it went back 3 months at the start, then the Moriarty scene, which led to the court case, to which they said was 6 weeks after he committed the crime, then they went ahead 2 months when John was checking his ATM to receive and invite from Mycroft.
Originally Posted by Deserana 12:
“I think the big clue is that Sherlock took a lot of high profile cases which he never normally does. Not sure ow it ties in though.”
“I think the big clue is that Sherlock took a lot of high profile cases which he never normally does. Not sure ow it ties in though.”
Maybe it was part of the plan to bring Moriarty out of the woodwork?
Originally Posted by Purple-flower:
“Maybe it was part of the plan to bring Moriarty out of the woodwork?”
“Maybe it was part of the plan to bring Moriarty out of the woodwork?”
It was useful backdrop to enable Sherlock to be put on a pedestal before his fall from grace. That's all I read into it.
Sherlock becoming famous, emerging from 221B exactly in the manner a celebrity would with echoes of Julia Roberts emerging from Hugh Grant's flat in Notting Hill.
Last edited by iamian : 20-01-2012 at 20:42
The thing that Sherlock did that was out of character, would that not be admitting that he was a fake. Yes I know it was supposed to convince Watson that he was real in committing suicide. But he could have told him he was going to jump because of the assassins etc... This makes me think that Moriaty is still alive and was faking his death (I hope so 
) and that Sherlock know this so still carries out the plan to fool Moriaty and his assassins. Could be wrong though!
) and that Sherlock know this so still carries out the plan to fool Moriaty and his assassins. Could be wrong though!
Originally Posted by lastseries:
“Well the thing he did that was out of character was that he showed fear. Holmes shows boredom, excitement, impatience but not fear.
When he first stands on the edge of Bart's roof (directly above Pathology where Molly works) he shows fear and ask 'Moriarty' for a moment.
Once 'Moriarty' walks away he is entirely calm and his reason must have been to play for time and get Moriarty to back away.
'Moriarty' seems to be aware of only three friends - Mrs Hudson, John and Inspector Lestrad, leaving Molly off the list entirely.
There is a sort of rubbish thing at the bottom that looks to be capable of providing a soft landing and yes, of course, Molly has been tasked to do something, which one assumes is to provide assistance in faking Sherlock's suicide.
There were also some rather interesting markings on the pavement that looked like they could have been done in chalk. I swear a lamp disappears too but that could be continuity or camera angle.
But essentially we all know that it was faked and it is possible that John was sedated with something and I am also suspicious of the convenient cyclist who knocks him down, preventing him from getting to the body.”
“Well the thing he did that was out of character was that he showed fear. Holmes shows boredom, excitement, impatience but not fear.
When he first stands on the edge of Bart's roof (directly above Pathology where Molly works) he shows fear and ask 'Moriarty' for a moment.
Once 'Moriarty' walks away he is entirely calm and his reason must have been to play for time and get Moriarty to back away.
'Moriarty' seems to be aware of only three friends - Mrs Hudson, John and Inspector Lestrad, leaving Molly off the list entirely.
There is a sort of rubbish thing at the bottom that looks to be capable of providing a soft landing and yes, of course, Molly has been tasked to do something, which one assumes is to provide assistance in faking Sherlock's suicide.
There were also some rather interesting markings on the pavement that looked like they could have been done in chalk. I swear a lamp disappears too but that could be continuity or camera angle.
But essentially we all know that it was faked and it is possible that John was sedated with something and I am also suspicious of the convenient cyclist who knocks him down, preventing him from getting to the body.”
Was the blind? man with the stick who hit the side of the van about 3 times with his stick, when Sherlock looked down the first time, somehow connected.
Originally Posted by chelleb:
“The thing that Sherlock did that was out of character, would that not be admitting that he was a fake. Yes I know it was supposed to convince Watson that he was real in committing suicide. But he could have told him he was going to jump because of the assassins etc... This makes me think that Moriaty is still alive and was faking his death (I hope so) and that Sherlock know this so still carries out the plan to fool Moriaty and his assassins. Could be wrong though!”
“The thing that Sherlock did that was out of character, would that not be admitting that he was a fake. Yes I know it was supposed to convince Watson that he was real in committing suicide. But he could have told him he was going to jump because of the assassins etc... This makes me think that Moriaty is still alive and was faking his death (I hope so
) and that Sherlock know this so still carries out the plan to fool Moriaty and his assassins. Could be wrong though!”
Being nice to Molly was out of character as well but it wasn't something we all missed.
Originally Posted by Relugus:
“Spot on. IMHO The IOU was to do with the code; 10, You.”
“Spot on. IMHO The IOU was to do with the code; 10, You.”
Yeah, that was suggested by previous posters too. I'm still not convinced though.
Quote:
“Another key thing in the rooftop scene is that Sherlock didn't show off, he played down his intelligence. Before the trial, Watson urged him not to show off, and it was Holmes' showing off which enabled Morriarty to turn people against him, because SH's behaviour fit perfectly the "fake genius" narrative of "Sir Boastalot". Moriarty used Homes' intelligence against him. Holmes, realizing the wisdom of Watson's advice, concealed his smarts in the first part of the rooftop confrontation, thus denying Moriarty the ammunition to attack him whilst also lulling Morriarty into slipping up. Note that when Morriarty started to believe Sherlock was ordinary, that's when he made the verbal slip.”
“Another key thing in the rooftop scene is that Sherlock didn't show off, he played down his intelligence. Before the trial, Watson urged him not to show off, and it was Holmes' showing off which enabled Morriarty to turn people against him, because SH's behaviour fit perfectly the "fake genius" narrative of "Sir Boastalot". Moriarty used Homes' intelligence against him. Holmes, realizing the wisdom of Watson's advice, concealed his smarts in the first part of the rooftop confrontation, thus denying Moriarty the ammunition to attack him whilst also lulling Morriarty into slipping up. Note that when Morriarty started to believe Sherlock was ordinary, that's when he made the verbal slip.”
Well observed and well argued. I wouldn't disagree. But it was not so much Sherlock's intelligence as his pride ( in thinking he's cleverer that everyone else and showing it off) that got him in trouble.
Quote:
“SH did not have it all mapped out. Yes, he planned something with Molly, and he obviously had considered the possible outcomes, and had likely surmised the presence of the assassins given the pattern of events. However, there were clearly fraught moments, such as when SH sought to find out how many assassins, if it had been 4 he may have had to actually commit suicide. Given Morriarty's formidable capabilities, Holmes could not be certain of the outcome at all. He was engaged in a psychological duel and had to constantly adjust and adapt.”
“SH did not have it all mapped out. Yes, he planned something with Molly, and he obviously had considered the possible outcomes, and had likely surmised the presence of the assassins given the pattern of events. However, there were clearly fraught moments, such as when SH sought to find out how many assassins, if it had been 4 he may have had to actually commit suicide. Given Morriarty's formidable capabilities, Holmes could not be certain of the outcome at all. He was engaged in a psychological duel and had to constantly adjust and adapt.”
About anticipating Moriarty's plan to use the assassins, I guess this goes back again to The Great Game and their first encounter. Remember, Moriarty had threatened to "burn the heart out of him". He replied " I've been reliably informed that I don't have one". To which Moriarty said, "But we both know that's not quite true !" So Sherlock is aware Moriarty knows he does care for the people around him even if he doesn't show it. Which means Moriarty would definitely use them to get to him.
Quote:
“Its actually quite beautiful how they showed Holmes' vulnerability, especially in the scene with Molly. Because he was facing death, he realized how much his friends mattered, and how he had taken them for granted. Holmes, often so quick to look down on others, was in awe of Molly's loyalty to him, even after he had treated her so badly.
He became more human, and in doing so discovered the strength he needed to defeat Morriarty.”
“Its actually quite beautiful how they showed Holmes' vulnerability, especially in the scene with Molly. Because he was facing death, he realized how much his friends mattered, and how he had taken them for granted. Holmes, often so quick to look down on others, was in awe of Molly's loyalty to him, even after he had treated her so badly.
He became more human, and in doing so discovered the strength he needed to defeat Morriarty.”
I think it was basically Molly's moment. He had taken her for granted and let his guard down with her, something he was always careful to conceal from John. I suppose he found new respect for her. She could read him when it was always the other way around. Nobody dared to do that before. So yeah, there's a progression in his character for the better.
Originally Posted by iamian:
“That's how I saw it, I was challenging how an actor, a proxy for the real Moriarty would be motivated to kill himself.
The Rich Brook device was just to fool the tabloid-buying public through Kitty Riley et al.”
“That's how I saw it, I was challenging how an actor, a proxy for the real Moriarty would be motivated to kill himself.
The Rich Brook device was just to fool the tabloid-buying public through Kitty Riley et al.”
Unless in this version of the Holmes universe Moriarty was an actor who named himself after a character in the Goon Show when he turned to crime.
And to repeat, Moriarty was the driving force behind A Study in Pink, the first episode of the first series. The man they caught was his proxy.
Originally Posted by Starfish.r.cool:
“Nope, was the sister Harry...Harriet, it was the thing he got wrong”
“Nope, was the sister
Harry...Harriet, it was the thing he got wrong”
Dammit! Of course, you're correct. What a doofus I am!
(as J-Mo would say...)
Again apologies if this has been noted already (and I know the hand-shake has been mentioned as a possible out of character action from SH), but in close-up, what on Earth is the white thing in SH's hand as he shakes JM's?
Originally Posted by skiller:
“Again apologies if this has been noted already (and I know the hand-shake has been mentioned as a possible out of character action from SH), but in close-up, what on Earth is the white thing in SH's hand as he shakes JM's?”
“Again apologies if this has been noted already (and I know the hand-shake has been mentioned as a possible out of character action from SH), but in close-up, what on Earth is the white thing in SH's hand as he shakes JM's?”
Very well spotted with that still, skiller. I don't know what it is but there's definitely something there!
I had a feeling that something else was going on between the two of them at that point (so much so that I missed the actual handshake first time round) just by their looks.
This might explain Sherlock's text to Moriarty:
"Got something of yours you might want back" (or words to that effect).
I thought it might have been Moriarty's penknife
I wonder what it is that you have spotted though.
P.S. Is that your pic? I'm after a couple of close-up pics myself but don't know how to take them. Hint, hint...
Originally Posted by Herefordgirl:
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
... Well the clue could simply be where do dead bodies go to? and who asked for help from a person who works in such a place. Simply put, looks like a body swap and then when it comes to identifying, Molly lies and claims the body to be that of Sherlocks. As to why Watson says Sherlock's face, the clue could be within why the little girl screams.
Or no second body was used, but Sherlock finds a way of getting off the truck, cover himself in blood and takes a pill to slow his heart rate down to the point Watson can't detect it.
Does look rather suspicious how a truck is parked but then drives off rather than actually help.
Other clues such as how did the Ambulance team get there so quickly (almost like they were on standby inside), they wouldn't normally remove a body that quickly without the police and setting up a crime scene. Also the body would have been covered too and not rushed away in case of damaging any potential evidence.
Plus we get the line, 'its a trick, its a magic trick, now don't move, keep your eyes fixed on me'
Edit: I dont see any white thing in his hand, I must be overlooking it. The only white thing I can see is the wall between his fingers.
Originally Posted by Herefordgirl:
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
“According to something in the Guardian today, everyone has missed a major clue...”
I'm not sure if that is from Steven Moffat a few days ago, i.e. "Sherlock doing something completely out of character", or if he is still saying it lol.
Perhaps we could make a list of what we've noticed so far, and then keep adding to it as we go along?
Here's some of mine, and what I can remember from this thread:
1. Sherlock is emotional
2. Sherlock makes tea (for Moriarty no less) and gets out his best china for the occasion
3. Part of his dialogue with John on the roof that I think might be important: "It's a trick, just a magic trick"
4. He shakes hands with the would-be-assassin and says, "Thank you" (unusual for him especially after his difficulties in thanking those who gave him gifts earlier in the episode)
5. I just recently noticed that Sherlock keeps clenching his fingers throughout the episode
6. Sherlock asks (Molly) for help!
Err can't think of any more for now.
What does Sherlock mean when he says to Moriarty on the roof:
"I may be on the side of the angels but don't think for one second that I am one of them", or words to that effect?
"I may be on the side of the angels but don't think for one second that I am one of them", or words to that effect?
Originally Posted by nethwen:
“P.S. Is that your pic? I'm after a couple of close-up pics myself but don't know how to take them. Hint, hint... ”
“P.S. Is that your pic? I'm after a couple of close-up pics myself but don't know how to take them. Hint, hint...
”
Yes, it was my own screencap from my copy. It wasn't even a close-up actually; just a cropped pic from the original size.
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“Edit: I dont see any white thing in his hand, I must be overlooking it. The only white thing I can see is the wall between his fingers.”
“Edit: I dont see any white thing in his hand, I must be overlooking it. The only white thing I can see is the wall between his fingers.”
Actually, looking at it again, I think you're probably right.
All I can say is that the one line from the final scenes on the rooftop that sticks with me the most is when SH says, "...but don't think for one second that I am one of them!"
Yet another gay reference!
Edit: Oh nethwen, snap!
Actually, looking at that pic again, I think you may be right about it being the wall (or part of the sky, maybe)?
On first sight I thought it looked like a capsule. Then my imagination started to run away with itself, thinking it was a drug - ala that plant drug mentioned earlier in the episode, which reminded me of the RJD Sherlock film.
Or part of a cotton bud, perhaps.
What was it Sherlock said again about seeing what you want to see... ?
On first sight I thought it looked like a capsule. Then my imagination started to run away with itself, thinking it was a drug - ala that plant drug mentioned earlier in the episode, which reminded me of the RJD Sherlock film.
Or part of a cotton bud, perhaps.
What was it Sherlock said again about seeing what you want to see... ?
Originally Posted by nethwen:
“What does Sherlock mean when he says to Moriarty on the roof:
"I may be on the side of the angels but don't think for one second that I am one of them", or words to that effect?
”
“What does Sherlock mean when he says to Moriarty on the roof:
"I may be on the side of the angels but don't think for one second that I am one of them", or words to that effect?
”
He was basically saying "I will fku up to get the snipers-down stop order from you and save my friends". Thus Moriaty only had one course of action to take to beat Sherlock - kill himself.
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“Molly lies and claims the body to be that of Sherlocks.”
“Molly lies and claims the body to be that of Sherlocks.”
It is usually the next of kin, in this case Mycroft who would be asked. In the absence of a close relative then Watson would have been asked.
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“ As to why Watson says Sherlock's face, the clue could be within why the little girl screams.”
“ As to why Watson says Sherlock's face, the clue could be within why the little girl screams.”
Not sure what you mean here vampirek?
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“Does look rather suspicious how a truck is parked but then drives off rather than actually help.”
“Does look rather suspicious how a truck is parked but then drives off rather than actually help.”
Not getting involved is normal these days though and many drivers are working to a schedule.
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“Other clues such as how did the Ambulance team get there so quickly (almost like they were on standby inside), they wouldn't normally remove a body that quickly without the police and setting up a crime scene. Also the body would have been covered too and not rushed away in case of damaging any potential evidence.
”
“Other clues such as how did the Ambulance team get there so quickly (almost like they were on standby inside), they wouldn't normally remove a body that quickly without the police and setting up a crime scene. Also the body would have been covered too and not rushed away in case of damaging any potential evidence.
”
Absolutely, but you're assuming he's dead. They would rush him away if there was a better chance of saving him inside.
Originally Posted by vampirek:
“
Plus we get the line, 'its a trick, its a magic trick, now don't move, keep your eyes fixed on me'”
“
Plus we get the line, 'its a trick, its a magic trick, now don't move, keep your eyes fixed on me'”
This does suggest some sort of subterfuge.
About Watson's sister. If Sherlock had really researched her he must have misstated her gender to add a bit of reality. Otherwise he drew a conclusion based on the information he had just as the world at large is about to do. Not sure if John had bloged tha mistake or not.
According to Steven Moffatt in The Guardian, some of the scenes for series 3 have already been filmed including an explanation of what did happen (which is logical if you think about it, they would have all the cast together at the location). He says Sherlock could be back before the end of 2012.
Originally Posted by skiller:
“Again apologies if this has been noted already (and I know the hand-shake has been mentioned as a possible out of character action from SH), but in close-up, what on Earth is the white thing in SH's hand as he shakes JM's?”
“Again apologies if this has been noted already (and I know the hand-shake has been mentioned as a possible out of character action from SH), but in close-up, what on Earth is the white thing in SH's hand as he shakes JM's?”
I'm only seeing the gap between his fingers.
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