I don't think Matthew did a poor job with Martina, I just don't think the British public warmed to her because of the problems she had had in her tennis career, her dancing was certainly better than some others who stayed in for much longer.

Cheshire Cheese

I think there's more of a case to say that for Martina than Siobhan... Siobhan was just awful, no-one was gonna make that look good. In other series she might have had a sympathy vote, but sadly for her she had Fiona even worse and also cheating in the choreo, which has always been Brendan's favourite way to get attention and/or votes.

Your words not mine.....

You said earlier that all the pros have done good and bad jobs with the celebs......

I'm choosing to disagree that Matthew has done a "bad job" with any celeb (possibly Siobhan back in 2005 in your view) and have given reasons why i don't agree with you .

I actually disagree that Lilia has made a bad job of any of her celebs either... I suspect that just makes me hopelessly partisan though!

Penny I think was a classic "good at ballroom, bad at latin" celeb, and most pros have done a better job than Ian managed to at hiding that (Zoe was an elevated example, as was Jodie, so it's not as though he didn't manage it at other times). They tend to be men, but Penny's Latin dances were actually terrifying and Ian should have curbed that. To be a bit obtuse, Penny could have bad in a much softer, more endearing way.

Dom and Lilia was an example I don't much enjoy poking at, because he was foul, but didn't every dance he did have some form of groping in it? I'd love to think he went on personality, but he doesn't seem to struggle for personality-led work now and I think only really assiduous viewers and Lilia/Darren fans really noticed their bad relationship went beyond the standard bickering, until maybe their "last dance".

I don't think Siobhan lost the sympathy vote because of Brendan and Fiona, because I don't think Fiona got a sympathy vote. I think she got a "laughing at" vote, although that might just be my opinion of her coming into play.

I do think taste in choreography makes it very difficult to discern what is "good" and "bad" choreography. Ian's sambas for instance tend to go down pretty poorly in the public vote, but are loved on here (and by me). I just think an obejctive view, looking solely at public response (which is again difficult to discern, because people don't just vote on what the pro does) suggests that there's not as much difference between the pros as people here make out, especially as I don't think most of the public pay much attention to the pros anyway and wouldn't even if they were Baryshnikov.

That's fine, but I read your posts as saying that I was suggesting that Matthew did a bad job with anyone other than those two, which was never part of my argument. I don't get why going back to Matthew's first series is really so ridiculous, when the argument started because someone was advocating booting Natalie, Katia and Aliona based on theirs, and it's been acknowledged that Ian made a bad impression in his.

The reason I say he went on personality is because of how he behaved over his marks for the Paso, saying the judges always slated him and never gave him nice comments or good marks, and then tutting and rolling his eyes as they marked him.... I think that was the overwhelming factor in him losing votes that week.

There wasn't a huge amount of groping, although that's what he's remembered for. It was basically in the AS (one of their four dances), which was a 'comedy' routine based on the fact that Len had said in the previous week that Dom never stopped staring at Lilia's arse when dancing.

I honestly think it's unfair to blame that partnership on choreo. I hated Dom, but their Cha Cha and Jive were actually very cleverly done around his cheeky personality. I think the AS was a mistake, but the Paso was fine, like I say I think his very bad sportsmanship was what cost him.

They're fixing the wrong part then

Fair enough but i will agree to disagree that Matthew has ever done a "bad" job with any celebrity given who he's been given

I will agree that its not fair to judge a pro on one series and one pairing with a celeb esp if its their first series but i can absolutely see why people may be questioning why Natalie/Katia/Aliona have been retained over Lilia who as far as i can see has never put a foot wrong.........i probably would have dropped Erin for Lilia TBH ( Erin not even in the dance troupe ) but then you're getting into he whole Anton thing again (as she is his pro partner).

Anyway i was supposed to be going out 15 mins ago thanks for the discussion

I would agree that there are perhaps more important or deserving areas to fix, and that I am not entirely at ease with this dance troupe business.. But, having said that, I would always advocate waiting to see how good or bad the new intake are, and how their presence improves or weakens the programme before judging these changes a failure/success/waste of time in advance of the programmes airing.

These things are largely a matter of opinion.

Ian, Lilia and Darren I would say are good at choreography, coaching, music and showing the celeb off.
Ola I would classify the same.

Matthew would maybe not be hard enough with a difficult celeb, as would Flavia, but otherwise excellent at everything.

Vincent - good at everything but occasonally out-dances the celeb.

Brian - good at everything except music.

Apart from those generalities, IMO some have more drive and try really hard with hopeless cases, and I'd give them extra credit for that.

This.

I wouldn't have chosen to make any of the changes we've seen so far (and if I were to "relegate" some pros it probably wouldn't choose the same ones), but I'm willing to see how it actually plays before I make a proper judgement. I'm still not convinced that they aren't pooling the pros like in DWTS, either.

I actually think everyone's concerns are totally valid, I'm just trying not to prejudge something that we still don't know an awful lot about.

The BBC / New Strictly produers have f#cked up the show big time , Who the hell lets the show's champion dancers go ?

The fact that Laila came fourth was a testement to the general standard of last year's competition only Zoe should have stayed longer than her. It's a debatable point if her generally poor latin was her fault or Anton's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't think that Siobhan or Martina's departure was Matt's fault although maybe a more extraverted personality might have made people vote for them although in the case of Martina he was pretty popular by that stage. I don't think Andrew Castle lasted that long before his sell-by-date apart from outlasting Don Warrington whom I think had the makings of a good ballroom dancer he went at the right time - Phil was worse than him in week one, and Gary and Mark Foster were worse than anyone else in the competition in the week they went - except the Sarge in the case of Mark Foster. Some of Ola's cheorography for Castle was pretty bizare and I know a lot of people have said that she didn't give Kenny enough to do in the rhumba - the paso was genius though it was a fun routinue which seemed to play to the patronistism of the Scots and made the most of Kenny's limited dance experince.

I wasn't a fan of Emma Bunton but the tango Darren cheorographed for her was superb and she deserved to through ahead of Louisa on its strength - and it was memorable and re-visiting the samba that was strong too. The odds were stacked against her because she had previous experience picking up cheorography (and entered the competition as favourite as a result which is always the kiss of death from what I've seen - Kelly and Joe Calzalge entered their year's as bookies favourites although Rachel did come close and arguably, although not by me, was deprived only by dodgy decisions that got Tom into a three-person final) and was at least preceived as being a tad over-marked by the judges and pushed in the selective VT coverage - I'm not getting into the argument of women don't vote for women which I consider to be rubbish - but it wasn't Darren's fault.

I agree that Penny was a classic good at ballroom not good at latin contestant and again suffered from people not liking WAGs on the program and bias from judges (I was not alone in thinking Gaby was better when she eliminated instead of Penny) ironically Darren Bennett appears to have thought so too. I think that actually looking bad the samba was a brilliant routinue that played to her strengths but Ian probably messed up the jive cheorography which didn't suit her at all. Jodie survived longer than ability dictated she should and that was because I was one of many whom voted for her because they liked her only being eliminated because Christine was even more popular. I would say her latin sucked but actually her jive was pretty good considering the tall girl factor and the fact she was ill when she was practicing it - Ian did a good job then cheorographing a fun rountine that showed her off quite well. It's quite hard to judge for the average viewer (a category in which I would include myself for I don't know much about dancing and am a pretty poor dancer myself) though what makes the most of a celeb's talents in terms of a well devised routine and when a pro may not have much to work with in some areas and it can be tough call to make how much a celeb can do. Brian obviously made a few routines too complicated for Ali whom was talented but whose nerves got the better for her on the night.

I t just goes to show those suits at the BBC who made the decision in the first place, to demote and sideline the most popular pros haven't got a clue about strictly or its audience. You do not alienate and lose your core audience who watch the show every week.

I have really tried to watch other dance shows but usually give up .. SCD is the only dancing show I've watched every week, when on, since it first started . I can see myself giving up on SCD this year also as I believe many other fans will do the same. Too many unwelcome changes

that is a shame that lilia and matt are leaving. i really liked them both

From a professional point of view, it is odd to split up a partnership and for Lilia to go and Darren to stay, but I guess there might be personal reasons (?) Not entirely up to date on this as I have been on holiday. I will miss Lilia.

As far as Matt is concerned, as much as I will miss him, I think he is making the right decision in moving on, not because of any statement it makes to the show's producers, but rather that there is a dance world beyond Strictly and I think Matt, in particular, is in a good position to make the most of the opportunities presented by that world.

Personally I think the talk of choreographic successes and failures with celeb partners is a bit of a red herring, since all the professionals have had those. My guess is the decision to keep certain professionals is entirely based on the profile they have with the media and casual viewers . Neither Matt or Lilia (or Darren) have sufficiently controversial personalities to get a high profile.

Matt might be on DOI this year. I'd love that.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s101/...ng-on-ice.html

It'd be great if Lilia would do it too but I believe she was a skater before becoming a ballroom/latin dancer so that could be a problem.

http://www.darrenandlilia.com/LiliaBiog.htm

Yep, Strictly was the only dance inspired show I could sit and watch all the way through, those others I tried and gave up on.

Won't be watching it this year though, they've royally screwed up this time.

I have, however, changed my mind about watching DOI, last year was rubbish and I didn't watch it after a few programs, however if it's got Matt Cutler in it, I shall be there watching, hoping to god he doesn't fall and break something.