Hartnell or Troughton-Who should take more credit?

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lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“hear hear

I am being completely serious...unlike some people I don't live in a bubble that assumes the world revoleves around my likes and dislikes and knowlegde....

My Friend, who have I have recently introduced Doctor Who too, when talking about who has starred in it...one didn't know this show even existed...didn't know about Chris or DT, or Matt despite Doctor Who being as huge as it is now....and doesn't even know the likes of Derek Jacobi.....doesn't mean that at the point of telling her all this...none of thoose people, or the show for the matter are well known by the majority...and well respected in the industry.....

The difference between my friend and you is that she didn't go on about saying "oh I didn't know him so that means no one else did as well" ...she just "oh, never heard of him".....

Aww that is lovely....and your one of the lucky ones to be there throught out its history!!!

Would that two years have included the fact that series one was initially going to be two series? so technically he may have done what he agreed to do.....

No he is well known in America too....what with the films.....and in all fairness, Doctor Who isn't that well known in America even know.....in 2005...it would be even less, so Doctor Who definitely cannot be seen as a spring board to America

As well as films like the Others and Elizabeth and Gone in 60 seconds that had nothing to do with northeners.....so he was well respected actor among Film makers.....
he was also a cult favourite due to films like Shallow Grave.....Due to the controversial stroyline of the Second Coming, his name was banded in the press....

And yes you can say that the whole reputation DOctor Who had pre-2005 was medai genearted....but that doesn't mean people didn't accept it....and it provided a risk when the show was brought back, because the knives were ready.....but the were put away soon enough.

And for someone who doesn't watch northern gritty shows....seems to know a lot about what happend to the character that Chris played

Exactly.....for me, I knew of the Daleks, and something called the Tardis...and a man who dresses werdly...who calls himself Doctor Who....and I thought CE was mad to do something like that, that it was below him.....but I was wrong...and happy to admit it....”

Doesn't happen all the time, but I agree with everything you say. CE didn't need Doctor Who. Those believing he did live in a very narrow bubble.

If I hadn't loved Doctor Who before, I would have definitely watched Doctor Who because he is in it. He had his reasons why he left Doctor Who (and good on him for not bad mouthing it afterwards), he definitely did not use it as a springboard into America or any other country.

crazzyaz7

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“Doesn't happen all the time, but I agree with everything you say. CE didn't need Doctor Who. Those believing he did live in a very narrow bubble.

If I hadn't loved Doctor Who before, I would have definitely watched Doctor Who because he is in it. He had his reasons why he left Doctor Who (and good on him for not bad mouthing it afterwards), he definitely did not use it as a springboard into America or any other country.”

Exactly.....he wanted the role, because he had respect for RTD as a writer, and asalways wants to do different, challenging roles....he hadn't done many comic type roles....and he knew playing th Doctor would allow him to do that....but none of that means he was desparate for it. 2005 Who owes a hell of lot to him....

Facepalmer

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“No he is well known in America too....what with the films.....and in all fairness, Doctor Who isn't that well known in America even know.....in 2005...it would be even less, so Doctor Who definitely cannot be seen as a spring board to America”

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“If I hadn't loved Doctor Who before, I would have definitely watched Doctor Who because he is in it. He had his reasons why he left Doctor Who (and good on him for not bad mouthing it afterwards), he definitely did not use it as a springboard into America or any other country.”

I didn't mean he used it as a springboard as such but I think it helped with his profile over there. America is such a huge market that mass appeal is really difficult there anyway. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how popular Who is over there now. Limited to BBC America channel and internet viewing (I think)
I've spent a bit of time over there with work and Who merchandise is in the shops so there must be a market for it. The comic conventions are massive there too and Who and Torchwood are some of the busiest parts of it. Hence the demand for TW over there. RTD, DT etc have hosted panels for the past few years and shown preview trailers there such as the one for End of Time finale weeks before we saw it over here. I think it's still very much a comparatively small audience for the States but they tend to take sci-fi and fantasy quite seriously there so I can see it becoming even more popular. They love British "quaintness" and eccentricity and Dr Who is all about that.
Totally agree that CE was better known there than Dr Who at that time and with his popular appearance in Heroes there he's even more well known. I don't believe CE needed Who or vice versa but I would say it was mutually beneficial.

JohnFlawbod

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“I was reading some handbooks today and it got me thinking as always does when I start a thread, about which of Hartnell and Troughton should we really be grateful to the most, for the show still being here today.

Hartnell for creating this superb character and setting the template for all other Doctors to follow, or Troughton, for taking over the role and being the first 'New Doctor' and making it easier and more acceptable for there to be New Doctors for all the actors who followed.

Though I admire Hartnell enormously, I'm leaning towards Troughton. The show could easily have finished when Hartnell left but had it not been for Troughton, maybe we wouldn't still have a show today.

So what do you all think? One or the other, perhaps you think both should take equal credit or neither of them should and another Doctor should take some credit as well. No right or wrong answers on this one, it's just about opinion.

Oh, and it isn't about who your favourite Doctor is, though some will see it as that, just your opinion on the topic! ”

There's a lovely quote from WH in the 10th Anniversary Radio Times Special for DW which has always stuck with me: "I was laughed at and mocked for my faith in Doctor Who." which I think edges Hartnell over Troughton because at the time, there was no reason why an actor of his ability should have taken a role that could have condemned him to the realms of "fluff" forever more...I also agree that Chris Eccleston should be given plaudits for having the guts to step into a potential minefield of fandom and critics and take on the role when offered in 2004: without him, where would be now?

spiney2

10-09-2010

I don't think Eccleston was very happy! But, being professional, he tried to make it work

JohnFlawbod

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by spiney2:
“I don't think Eccleston was very happy! But, being professional, he tried to make it work”

In his defence, he was unprepared for the Production methods and schedule required to film Series 1...it's easy to forget what 8 months with a majoritively 8-12 hour filming day can take out of any actor...we're kind of used to bandying about these terms now but actually experiencing that pressure for the first time (whilst everyone, including RTD was essentially making it up as they went along in terms of production - no quips please Tingy!) must have been pretty tough.

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“Exactly.....he wanted the role, because he had respect for RTD as a writer, and asalways wants to do different, challenging roles....he hadn't done many comic type roles....and he knew playing th Doctor would allow him to do that....but none of that means he was desparate for it. 2005 Who owes a hell of lot to him....”

Just realised I forgot to put in a smilie (

), where I say it doesn't happen very often. Well so often meaning is lost in this forum.

I'm a big CE fan so no arguments from me here (still like David and Matt and every other Doctor actor as well)

Originally Posted by Facepalmer:
“I didn't mean he used it as a springboard as such but I think it helped with his profile over there. America is such a huge market that mass appeal is really difficult there anyway. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how popular Who is over there now. Limited to BBC America channel and internet viewing (I think)
I've spent a bit of time over there with work and Who merchandise is in the shops so there must be a market for it. The comic conventions are massive there too and Who and Torchwood are some of the busiest parts of it. Hence the demand for TW over there. RTD, DT etc have hosted panels for the past few years and shown preview trailers there such as the one for End of Time finale weeks before we saw it over here. I think it's still very much a comparatively small audience for the States but they tend to take sci-fi and fantasy quite seriously there so I can see it becoming even more popular. They love British "quaintness" and eccentricity and Dr Who is all about that.
Totally agree that CE was better known there than Dr Who at that time and with his popular appearance in Heroes there he's even more well known. I don't believe CE needed Who or vice versa but I would say it was mutually beneficial. ”

Yes I can see that, I think every actor hopes that a role will lead to other roles and maybe opens up other opportunities. I always thought Chris and Russell knew each other well, and Chris did it as a favour to Russell
(disclaimer: this could be completely made up, they obviously did know each other from Second Coming).

darthbibble

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“Would that two years have included the fact that series one was initially going to be two series? so technically he may have done what he agreed to do.....”

The implication in what I was told (or at least how I took it) was for 2*13 episodes - Was more interested in finding out the other names at that point.

daveyboy7472

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by crazzyaz7:
“I think that is quite unfair, considering that he was a well respected actor, who was more well known than Doctor Who was at that time...for example I watched Rose because of him...he gave a show that had become a joke, credibility. The idea that if Chris is wanting to do it, then it has to be something specail....(which it was)....a man of his calibre doesn't need a carear boost....but he did boost the show itself.....”

I wasn't being unfair Crazzy, I didn't totally dislike CE, I just didn't like the way he quit as soon as the series started. Doesn't seem right somehow.....

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“I try to be fair to CE, even though he's my least favourite Doctor. I think it was a risk for him to take on the role, as he had no idea that the show was going to be such a success. If it had flopped, it wouldn't have done his career much good.

I think it was a shame that he left so soon, though that's his decision, of course, but on the other hand I'm glad, because we then got lovely Doctor 10.”

I think Tennant should have been there from the beginning!!!

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Are you serious? Doctor Who has been ingrained in the British public's consciousness since the sixties, images like the TARDIS and the Daleks and characters like K9 have been iconic for years; I doubt many people, even those who'd seen him in stuff like Cracker, had any idea who Eccleston was!”

Have to admit, i'd barely heard of him before Doctor Who!

Originally Posted by Airam:
“Hartnell and Troughton were both consummate character actors, well experienced in their craft, long before they took the role. Hartnell being an older actor gave the Doctor gravitas and scientific credibility but also the great likeability which has endured..

However, IMHO the evolution from there to the modern Doctors began with Patrick Troughton, because he made the role his own and put the quirkiness into the character which let the following Doctors play with the part and put their own stamp on it. e.g. Jon Pertwee brought comedy to the role.

I'd opt for Patrick Troughton”

I don't think Pertwee's Doctor will be renowned for his humour. His distinct lack of it in some of his adventures is one of the reasons he's near the bottom of my fave Doctors.

Originally Posted by darthbibble:
“Are you sure?

He played it far straighter than most, if not all of them.”

Exactly! Too straight at times!!!!

Originally Posted by Eaglestriker:
“He had his moments, though! Singing in the shower, escaping a hospital - gagged - on a wheelchair, dressing up as a cleaner lady and a milkman... none of the other Docs did that!

(Just remembered Matt Smith had a shower scene in The Lodger!)”

Yeah, but that was his first story he didn't get as funny as that much afterwards.

Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“I will have to disagree and say I think the majority of film and/or TV audience (which is the majority of the population) would know CE. (See Facepalmer above).

I agree he's not known for his broad range - perhaps why I wasn't keen on him as the Doctor - not able to encompass comedy and tragedy like, say, David Tennant*.

*I just put that in to annoy you
And, sorry, davey, I seem to have highjacked your thread”

I thought we were friends Granny......

Originally Posted by JohnFlawbod:
“There's a lovely quote from WH in the 10th Anniversary Radio Times Special for DW which has always stuck with me: "I was laughed at and mocked for my faith in Doctor Who." which I think edges Hartnell over Troughton because at the time, there was no reason why an actor of his ability should have taken a role that could have condemned him to the realms of "fluff" forever more...I also agree that Chris Eccleston should be given plaudits for having the guts to step into a potential minefield of fandom and critics and take on the role when offered in 2004: without him, where would be now?”

As I said above, we'd have had Tennant instead. I read somewhere he wanted the part but Ecclestone got there first so if CE hadn't got it, Tennant would have!

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“I wasn't being unfair Crazzy, I didn't totally dislike CE, I just didn't like the way he quit as soon as the series started. Doesn't seem right somehow.....”

I do know somewhat where you are coming from, although I have different motives. I didn't like him quitting because I loved his doctor. On the other hand, we don't know what happened. Last year I was contracted to lecture somewhere for 9 months. I couldn't stand the place after the first 2 weeks, and I quit. Later I found out that they recruit a lot of people every year because nobody stays. Should I have stayed instead? No, and I don't think CE should have either if he didn't like it.

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“Have to admit, i'd barely heard of him before Doctor Who!”

Doesn't mean anything thought

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“As I said above, we'd have had Tennant instead. I read somewhere he wanted the part but Ecclestone got there first so if CE hadn't got it, Tennant would have! ”

I might be wrong, but on a wide scale CE was better known than DT (had he not starred in "The ohters" before Doctor Who. It might have been a success with DT as the ninth doctor, but we will never know now

.
Last edited by lach doch mal : 10-09-2010 at 16:30

daveyboy7472

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“I do know somewhat where you are coming from, although I have different motives. I didn't like him quitting because I loved his doctor. On the other hand, we don't know what happened. Last year I was contracted to lecture somewhere for 9 months. I couldn't stand the place after the first 2 weeks, and I quit. Later I found out that they recruit a lot of people every year because nobody stays. Should I have stayed instead? No, and I don't think CE should have either if he didn't like it.

Doesn't mean anything thought

I might be wrong, but on a wide scale CE was better known than DT (had he not starred in "The ohters" before Doctor Who. It might have been a success with DT as the ninth doctor, but we will never know now.”

Well I think CE is one of those Doctors who will always cause debate for what happened. None of that takes away the fact he still my least favourite Doctor, though....

I think at the time CE was playing The Doctor that Tennant was in Casanova, that's sort of what gave him a bit of profile before going into Doctor Who.

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“Well I think CE is one of those Doctors who will always cause debate for what happened. None of that takes away the fact he still my least favourite Doctor, though....

I think at the time CE was playing The Doctor that Tennant was in Casanova, that's sort of what gave him a bit of profile before going into Doctor Who. ”

To be fair, we cannot all like the same thing, can we. That would be extremely boring and the threads on here wouldn't be half as interesting. It would all go like this:

I really liked Saturday's episode!

Me too!

I liked it too!

I enjoyed it.

It was great!

What a lovely episode!

daveyboy7472

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“To be fair, we cannot all like the same thing, can we. That would be extremely boring and the threads on here wouldn't be half as interesting. It would all go like this:

I really liked Saturday's episode!

Me too!

I liked it too!

I enjoyed it.

It was great!

What a lovely episode!”

I know, I remember saying all those things while Series 5 was on.....

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“[/b]

I know, I remember saying all those things while Series 5 was on.....”

Me too

Well apart from "Hungry Earth" and "Cold Blood" <shudders>.

tingramretro

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“I might be wrong, but on a wide scale CE was better known than DT (had he not starred in "The ohters" before Doctor Who. It might have been a success with DT as the ninth doctor, but we will never know now.”

The Others is, aside from one episode of Cracker I think I caught by accident, about the only thing outside of Doctor Who that I've seen Eccleston in-but I didn't actually realise it was him at the time. I think you're using the term 'starred in' very broadly, not to say inaccurately, here: as I recall, he appeared in about two short scenes, a matter of a couple of minutes each. Nicole Kidman and arguably Eric Sykes and Fionnula Flanagan could be said to have starred in the film; Eccleston had a bit part.

daveyboy7472

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“Me too

Well apart from "Hungry Earth" and "Cold Blood" <shudders>.”

Me too, apart from The Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Time Of Angels. Flesh and Blood, Vampires in Venice......

Perhaps not then......

neo_wales

10-09-2010

Mr Troughton for me was the best although I did enjoy Mr Hartnell too.

Its a shame that Robert Carlyle did not take the reigns as the new doctor, I think he would have been superb but he's now doing rather well I believe in America and I would imagine earning his pension fund so good luck to him.

tingramretro

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by neo_wales:
“Mr Troughton for me was the best although I did enjoy Mr Hartnell too.

Its a shame that Robert Carlyle did not take the reigns as the new doctor, I think he would have been superb but he's now doing rather well I believe in America and I would imagine earning his pension fund so good luck to him.”

Where did Robert Carlyle come from all of a sudden? I wasn't aware he'd ever been mentioned in connection with the part.

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“The Others is, aside from one episode of Cracker I think I caught by accident, about the only thing outside of Doctor Who that I've seen Eccleston in-but I didn't actually realise it was him at the time. I think you're using the term 'starred in' very broadly, not to say inaccurately, here: as I recall, he appeared in about two short scenes, a matter of a couple of minutes each. Nicole Kidman and arguably Eric Sykes and Fionnula Flanagan could be said to have starred in the film; Eccleston had a bit part.”

Yes sorry teacher, "starred" is probably the wrong word. He had a part in it! Better?

. However you still have heard of him, which is quite remarkable

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“Me too, apart from The Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Time Of Angels. Flesh and Blood, Vampires in Venice......

Perhaps not then......”

tingramretro

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“Yes sorry teacher, "starred" is probably the wrong word. He had a part in it! Better?. However you still have heard of him, which is quite remarkable.”

I'd seen the film quite some time ago but never connected the moody bloke in the army uniform to Doctor who (or even really remembered him) until it was pointed out to me that he was played by Eccleston. The hugely respected and incredibly well known actor was surprisingly unobtrusive in that one...

outside

10-09-2010

Hugh Grant was offered the role but turned it down. I'm sure he said that himself in an interview.

lach doch mal

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I'd seen the film quite some time ago but never connected the moody bloke in the army uniform to Doctor who (or even really remembered him) until it was pointed out to me that he was played by Eccleston. The hugely respected and incredibly well known actor was surprisingly unobtrusive in that one...”

Ah shows you what a good actor he is though, if you didn't recognise him

.

I think he has done quite a bit of theatre work as well. He is not to everyone's taste, but I like him.

Originally Posted by outside:
“Hugh Grant was offered the role but turned it down. I'm sure he said that himself in an interview.”

I don't dislike him, but I'm somewhat grateful for that

tingramretro

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by outside:
“Hugh Grant was offered the role but turned it down. I'm sure he said that himself in an interview.”

I think that was just more rumour and unfounded speculation. Whatever Grant said, I doubt they'd have offered the role to him-he'd be too expensive.

outside

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I think that was just more rumour and unfounded speculation. Whatever Grant said, I doubt they'd have offered the role to him-he'd be too expensive.”

No, I think it was because my friends and I hadn't really heard of him.

Granny McSmith

10-09-2010

Originally Posted by daveyboy7472:
“Me too, apart from The Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Time Of Angels. Flesh and Blood, Vampires in Venice......

Perhaps not then......”

And, not forgetting....The Big Bang

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Where did Robert Carlyle come from all of a sudden? I wasn't aware he'd ever been mentioned in connection with the part.”

No, me neither.

Originally Posted by outside:
“Hugh Grant was offered the role but turned it down. I'm sure he said that himself in an interview.”

Hugh Grant? Are you sure it wasn't Richard E?

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