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Hartnell or Troughton-Who should take more credit?
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outside
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I've watched Shalka a few times but until you mentioned it, it had never registered with me that Tennant had a bit part in it.

Damn. It's spoiled for me, now.”

I didn't really like REG's performance, anyway, although he did improve as the episodes progressed. I liked Sophie Okonedo's Alison but the whole thing wasn't quite right. The Master as the Doctor's robot pal? Typical Paul Cornell PC nonsense.
tingramretro
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by outside:
“I didn't really like REG's performance, anyway, although he did improve as the episodes progressed. I liked Sophie Okonedo's Alison but the whole thing wasn't quite right. The Master as the Doctor's robot pal? Typical Paul Cornell PC nonsense.”

I don't think the Master was his 'pal', exactly-more his prisoner...or possibly 'pet' would be a better word!
Eaglestriker
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by outside:
“Typical Paul Cornell PC nonsense.”

He did give us 'Human Nature' and 'Father's Day' Didn't you like them? Two of my favourite Who episodes, personally!
outside
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I don't think the Master was his 'pal', exactly-more his prisoner...or possibly 'pet' would be a better word!”

Originally Posted by Eaglestriker:
“He did give us 'Human Nature' and 'Father's Day' Didn't you like them? Two of my favourite Who episodes, personally!”

Cornell originally wanted the Fifth Doctor to be REG's TARDIS companion.

That's fanw*nk in extremis, if you ask me.

Yes, I liked the TV episodes but I was thinking more of his New Adventures novels. They were full of desperate attempts to be cool and "right-on" (like a Doctor Who version of Ben Elton and, in my opinion, just as naff) with versions of Vic Reeves and the Wonderstuff (a merely moderately popular 'indie' group at the time) playing parts in the narratives. Personally, I just don't think Cornell's a good writer. I liked his Captain Britain stuff - though only tingramretro may appreciate where I'm coming from, there (but it still smacked too much of PC-ness with the Faiza character) - but his recent BBC3 pilot "Pulse" was totally directionless and I'm glad it's not been picked up.
tingramretro
11-09-2010
I'm genuinely surprised-I really like Paul's stuff, and always found him to be one of the better NA writers. I'll admit that, as far as Captain Britain goes, Faiza Hussein never really grabbed me as a character, but I don't find him objectionably PC, and I'm really enjoying his new Action Comics run.

He's also a genuinely nice bloke to talk to and says his dream job would be writing The Defenders, so he can do no wrong in my book...
outside
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I'm genuinely surprised-I really like Paul's stuff, and always found him to be one of the better NA writers. I'll admit that, as far as Captain Britain goes, Faiza Hussein never really grabbed me as a character, but I don't find him objectionably PC, and I'm really enjoying his new Action Comics run.

He's also a genuinely nice bloke to talk to and says his dream job would be writing The Defenders, so he can do no wrong in my book...”

Well, I like The Defenders but you can't go wrong with those characters, can you? Well, I suppose you can... but that's a different forum!

To make a comparison with a certain show-runner, if I may... you're constantly told how great a writer is but you, personally, don't understand what all the fuss is about. I had that with Cornell and Kate Orman during the NAs. I didn't rate them as being particularly exceptional but, it seemed to me, everyone else did. (Also, Orman had a pop at me in DWM but that's beside the point). I just accepted, unhappily, that the majority liked them and I didn't.

Cornell's writing style, prose-wise, is fine but a lot of the content stuck in my craw. For example - let's rehabilitate the Vardans! I know you, like myself, appreciate "The Invasion of Time" but would you bring them back as a believable adversary? I wouldn't. They're nothing. Sure, anything and anyone can be re-invented but, when it comes down to it, they're bland and cliched.

The Nimon? Again, monsters who've become a punchline. If you must bring them back, at least do something with them. Yeah, Davies dragged the Macra back from their grave but he didn't pretend they were any more exceptional than they had been originally.

I don't like Cornell's BF scripts, either ( I hate "The Shadow of the Scourge"), but, to be honest, I don't like many of their script writers' work!
tingramretro
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by outside:
“Well, I like The Defenders but you can't go wrong with those characters, can you? Well, I suppose you can... but that's a different forum!

To make a comparison with a certain show-runner, if I may... you're constantly told how great a writer is but you, personally, don't understand what all the fuss is about. I had that with Cornell and Kate Orman during the NAs. I didn't rate them as being particularly exceptional but, it seemed to me, everyone else did. (Also, Orman had a pop at me in DWM but that's beside the point). I just accepted, unhappily, that the majority liked them and I didn't.

Cornell's writing style, prose-wise, is fine but a lot of the content stuck in my craw. For example - let's rehabilitate the Vardans! I know you, like myself, appreciate "The Invasion of Time" but would you bring them back as a believable adversary? I wouldn't. They're nothing. Sure, anything and anyone can be re-invented but, when it comes down to it, they're bland and cliched.”

Well, yes-but then, that was rather the point of bringing them back, they were bland and cliched! That's why you get that wonderful exchange between the Vardans and Benny, something along the lines of 'do not people tremble at our name?' 'well, no. Usually, they say things like 'oh, thank heavens, it's only the Vardans'.
Quote:
“The Nimon? Again, monsters who've become a punchline. If you must bring them back, at least do something with them. Yeah, Davies dragged the Macra back from their grave but he didn't pretend they were any more exceptional than they had been originally. I don't like Cornell's BF scripts, either, but, to be honest, I don't like many of their script writers' work!”

We find ourselves firmly on opposite sides of the fence, here...
outside
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Well, yes-but then, that was rather the point of bringing them back, they were bland and cliched!”

I know that was the point but... why? Rubbish characters don't improve by having them cleverly revealed as rubbish.

If you wrote a novel about the Taran Wood Beast, would you expect the rest of us to think "oh, what a scary monster that lump of fur truly was"?

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“ That's why you get that wonderful exchange between the Vardans and Benny, something along the lines of 'do not people tremble at our name?' 'well, no. Usually, they say things like 'oh, thank heavens, it's only the Vardans'.”

I know what you're saying but, to me, it was all too self-aware. The Vardan Popular Front? Please.

Mind you, whatever Benny said was usually appropriate so I'll give Cornell props for that.

Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“We find ourselves firmly on opposite sides of the fence, here...”

It's the quality of the writing I have an issue with. They have few Robert Holmes but a lot of Glen McCoys!
gslam2
11-09-2010
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“I'm genuinely surprised-I really like Paul's stuff, and always found him to be one of the better NA writers. I'll admit that, as far as Captain Britain goes, Faiza Hussein never really grabbed me as a character, but I don't find him objectionably PC, and I'm really enjoying his new Action Comics run.

He's also a genuinely nice bloke to talk to and says his dream job would be writing The Defenders, so he can do no wrong in my book...”

I thought his Captain Britain run was very poor and I don't read Superman titles but anyone who wants to bring back the Defenders gets the thumbs up from me.
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