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Bi-Wiring , I'm confused with my terminals


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Old 12-09-2010, 14:10
Pharaohmoan
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Here is the back of my AMP
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avr1907/rearlrg.jpg

I have a 7.1 set up and have front main speakers with bi-wiring capabilities BUT I don't know what speaker terminals to connect them up to.

I don't want to bi-amp but do want to use my speakers bi-wiring capability.

I am only using one set of the front L/R terminals on the amp, can i use the other 2 free terminals on the amp for the other pair of front main speaker inputs? I don't actually know what else they are meant for on the amp!?

I keep reading about using 5.1 instead of 7.1 and losing some of the surround channels to power the front mains but i have 2 front speaker terminals that are free, should i be using them?

I'm confused!
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Old 12-09-2010, 14:25
Pugwash69
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Looks to me like you have support for Zone A and Zone B on the fronts, so use them both to link to the front pair of speakers.
You will still have centre, mid L+R and rear L+R to give 7 channels.
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Old 12-09-2010, 20:33
Chris Frost
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Bi-wiring is generally done from a single set of speaker outputs on the amp. So you remove the bi-wire links on the speakers and connect up two sets of speaker cable from the same outputs on the amp to drive the HF and LF input on the speakers.

If you're still confused then have a look at the picture here

I'd be surprised if you found a significant benefit running bi-wire from an AV amp, but if you have the cable and you can make the connections safely then I think it's worth a try just for curiosity's sake.
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Old 13-09-2010, 01:18
Pharaohmoan
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OK i'm even more baffled now cos theres so many options.

Basically these are the bi-wired speakers I've managed to bag http://www.wired4sound.net.au/speake...o_concert.html

Now as you can see from the back of the amp i've got 8 outputs just for the front speakers.

So if i am correct i should be able to use one channel on the amp for left speaker base and right speaker treble and the other channel for for right speaker base and left speaker treble.

Yes?

Or better one Amp channel for just base and the other for just treble?
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Old 13-09-2010, 05:51
diablo
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The connections for front speakers are labelled as A and B, this is meant to allow you to have separate speakers in a another room. Both using the same amplifiers.

If the receiver allows you to select both A and B at once then you can use the B terminals for bi-wiring.

Bi-wiring and passive bi-amping are both a waste of cable in my experience.
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Old 13-09-2010, 06:25
pocatello
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-wiring
"Opponents of bi-wiring argue that the two ways of making connections are equivalent. This has led some to sarcastically refer to the practice as "buy-wiring", implying it is nothing more than a marketing gimmick for expensive speaker wire.[1]"

A lot of audiophile stuff is the equivalent of homeopathy.
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Old 13-09-2010, 13:54
RobAnt
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@ Chris
I'd be surprised if you found a significant benefit running bi-wire from an AV amp, but if you have the cable and you can make the connections safely then I think it's worth a try just for curiosity's sake
I agree with you when used in AV mode, but most AV amps also have a stereo mode, where it "should" make a difference. I'm sure it does in mine, but the effect is very subtle. Nevertheless I bought cables for this many years ago (actually the cables have 4 leads in each, so there was no extra expense involved), so I can see no reason not to use them.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:01
Pharaohmoan
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Seeing as i've got a single channel for each speaker terminal I would have thought that at least there is some difference with regards to power output!? As opposed to using only one amp channel and bridging the speaker connections. Yes/No?
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:07
RobAnt
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The idea is that you split the output between the the high frequencies and the low frequences. So, you're really just using the same amount of power per speaker.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:08
chrisjr
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OK i'm even more baffled now cos theres so many options.

Basically these are the bi-wired speakers I've managed to bag http://www.wired4sound.net.au/speake...o_concert.html

Now as you can see from the back of the amp i've got 8 outputs just for the front speakers.

So if i am correct i should be able to use one channel on the amp for left speaker base and right speaker treble and the other channel for for right speaker base and left speaker treble.

Yes?

Or better one Amp channel for just base and the other for just treble?
You use Left A for the left speaker bass. Left B for the left speaker Treble. Right A for the right speaker bass. Right B for the right speaker Treble. Or A for treble and B for Bass it is completely irrelevant which way round you connect them. Just so long as you only wire the Left speaker to the Left terminals on the amp and the Right speaker to the Right amp terminals.

That is always assuming the amp can power both A and B outputs at the same time, which the label above the terminals does seem to imply.

In any case having A and B sets of terminals just makes the wiring a bit easier. When you press whatever buttons there are to power both sets of terminals the Left A and Left B are simply joined together, as are the Right A and Right B.

So it would make no real difference if you ran two pairs of wires from the Left A terminals on the amp to the speaker and similarly for the right.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:13
RobAnt
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-wiring
"Opponents of bi-wiring argue that the two ways of making connections are equivalent. This has led some to sarcastically refer to the practice as "buy-wiring", implying it is nothing more than a marketing gimmick for expensive speaker wire.[1]"

A lot of audiophile stuff is the equivalent of homeopathy.
That article isn't particularly well balanced. It makes no attempt to balance the views of the Opponents, with the views of the Proponents.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:16
chrisjr
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Seeing as i've got a single channel for each speaker terminal I would have thought that at least there is some difference with regards to power output!? As opposed to using only one amp channel and bridging the speaker connections. Yes/No?
But you don't have an amplifier per terminal though.

On that particular amp there are two sets of speaker terminals for the front left and right. But only two amps, one for the left and one for the right channel.

The single Left(Right) amp is connected either to the A or B or both sets of terminals depending on the switch settings.

You can tell this from the label above the terminals. In A or B mode it can drive 6 ohm or higher impedance speakers. In A and B mode the minimum impedance is now 12 ohm. That implies the A and B terminals are wired in parallel in A and B mode as two sets of 12 ohm speakers in parallel would present a 6ohm load to the amplifier.

So whatever is on the A terminals will be on the B terminals as well. So it doesn't really make any difference whether you use A or B individually or as a pair.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:32
pocatello
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That article isn't particularly well balanced. It makes no attempt to balance the views of the Opponents, with the views of the Proponents.
This is electronics, there are facts, not sides.
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Old 13-09-2010, 14:49
diablo
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I recall bi-amping my Castle Conway speakers with NAD amps some years ago. It was a lot of effort to do - installing the extra cables.

When I listened to it afterwards I was sure that it sounded better.

Though to make sure I installed a box which I could set at random which shorted out the bi-amp connections. Then I wrote down if I thought it was bi-amped or not and checked with the box settings.

Turned out I couldn't tell the difference at all. Both sounded the same really. And that was bi-amping.

I'm convinced that using an active crossover with two amps would sound better - especially if you can control the phase. Though I haven't had the nerve to remove the passive crossover from my Castles yet.

Maybe next year ?
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Old 13-09-2010, 15:01
Pharaohmoan
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But you don't have an amplifier per terminal though.

On that particular amp there are two sets of speaker terminals for the front left and right. But only two amps, one for the left and one for the right channel.

The single Left(Right) amp is connected either to the A or B or both sets of terminals depending on the switch settings.

You can tell this from the label above the terminals. In A or B mode it can drive 6 ohm or higher impedance speakers. In A and B mode the minimum impedance is now 12 ohm. That implies the A and B terminals are wired in parallel in A and B mode as two sets of 12 ohm speakers in parallel would present a 6ohm load to the amplifier.

So whatever is on the A terminals will be on the B terminals as well. So it doesn't really make any difference whether you use A or B individually or as a pair.
Ah my speakers are 6 ohm so perhaps the best bet is to just use one of the so called amp channels rather than switch A&B both on on the amp. And I think i'll bridge the speaker connections also seeing as most people don't seem to notice a bi-wiring difference. Need only four wires now instead of 8. Its spaggetti junction behind my TV at the moment anyway!

Thanks guys.
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Old 13-09-2010, 15:12
chrisjr
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Ah my speakers are 6 ohm so perhaps the best bet is to just use one of the so called amp channels rather than switch A&B both on on the amp. And I think i'll bridge the speaker connections also seeing as most people don't seem to notice a bi-wiring difference. Need only four wires now instead of 8. Its spaggetti junction behind my TV at the moment anyway!

Thanks guys.
The 12 ohm restriction only applies if you have both A and B terminals connected. In other words the combined impedance of the speakers connected to the A and B terminals cannot be less than 6ohms

If you biwire the speakers the load as seen by the amplifier will be the same as if you just ran a single pair of wires to the speakers and bridged the speaker terminals.

Electrically the two wiring arrangements are the same. It's just the number of wires required that differs
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Old 13-09-2010, 16:36
RobAnt
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This is electronics, there are facts, not sides.
Then why refer to "opponents"

Your quote, not mine:

Opponents of bi-wiring argue......
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Old 13-09-2010, 16:44
diablo
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Try finding any ABX blind testing which prove that anyone, even the 'golden eared', can tell the difference between straight wiring and bi-wiring.

I bet you can't.

Nobody who supports it is willing to go into a trial.
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Old 16-09-2010, 05:33
pocatello
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Then why refer to "opponents"

Your quote, not mine:
You are the one making assertions of quality improvement, this has to be backed by science and testing. Can your side deliver, either it can, or it can't. Extraordinary claims demand exatraordinary evidence. Something ignored so often by audiophiles.
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