Just read in my Sixth Doctor Handbook today that JNT has been regarded as quite possibly the most controversial person ever to have been situated with Doctor Who. Such is the variance of opinion on him it seems a really good topic for a thread!!!

JNT did a lot good things for Doctor Who, but he did a lot of bad things as well. On the plus side, he helped get the show back on air from behind the scnes in '86, he updated the series at the beginning of the 80's and keeping the publicity machine going to keep the show in the public eye. On the other hand he stayed longer than he should, gave the sith Doctor a crappy costume and very bad debut and then allowed Andrew Cartmel to ruin the look of the show during the McCoy Era as well so some very outlandish stories.

If I've started a thread similar to this before, I apologise but with debate going on about McCoy's Era in one thread at the moment, it seemed a good time to start a JNT thread.

So what are everyone's views on JNT? Love him? Hate him? Not bothered?

I loved the early years of JNT - Tom Baker's final season and most of Peter Davison's first two years. I loved the darkness of Logopolis and the shocks and brutality of Earthshock. I loved the soap opera companions that helped the show cruise safetly into a post Tom Baker era.

The problem is when JNT began to go off course, he lurched from one style to another and the show lost a clear identity.

I think - personally - that he went from being the show's saviour to the main reason it was dropped in 1989.

Well, first of all I loved much of the Cartmel era so I obviously disagree with that part. Generally, I'm very much in the pro-JNT camp; this was a guy who loved the show, who was excellent at keeping it firmly in the public eye, and who in the final analysis was responsible for almost a decade of stories, some good, some bad, some quite outstanding, and several different new directions for the show. People tend to think of JNT as presiding over the demise of Doctor Who; in fact, they tend to forget, he presided over a full third of its lifespan back then (more, if you consider his time as Production Unit Manager). He stayed on because no-one else would do the job and because he didn't want to see Doctor Who axed by an ungrateful corporation. Yes, he made some dubious decisions, but he was one of Doctor Who's greatest champions anbd he deserves a lot more credit than he often gets.

Which seems to indicate that you really haven't researched what was happening back then very closely at all...

I wasn't dissing all the McCoy Era Tony. As I said in the other thread, the last part of it was okay but I was referring to Seasons 24 and 25 when he could have stopped stories like The Happiness Patrol etc and just improved the style more.

And you can't blame him for everything, he did a lot of good as well as bad, that's what makes him so controversial!!

I am sure you have documented facts proving your opinion to be right and everyone else wrong lol

Quite a lot of them, yes.

Interesting that apart from the decade that description could easily apply to RTD......

Not really. I saw very little in the way of new directions post 2006. But a nice attempt at derailing a thread about a really great producer all the same.

Also, Davies was never as much of a friend to the fans as JNT, who gave up a lot of his time to interact with the hardcore faithful. The words 'ming mong' would have been unlikely ever to have passed his lips.

I'm not trying to derail the thread at all, just making the point that RTD and JNT have, by your own admission, many similarities, yet you love one and hate the other.....

I refer the honourable gentleman to my comment about the ming mongs. He did little to earn my respect, and JNT at least knew he was making a sci-fi show.

There are plenty of people who were involved in the show during its original run (up until 1989) who are documented as saying that there are lots of similarities between RTD and JNT. So I guess that makes it a fact.

My original intention for this thread was discuss the similarities between RTD and JNT's contributions to the show, but thought it would lead to more Tony rants, but I guess it's too late now!!!!

I didn't bring him into it. I was hoping for a Davies free thread focusing on a guy who deserved a bit more appreciation, but I guess that will never happen nowadays.

It was me that brought up RTD and I apologise for doing so, it just struck me how similar him and JNT are,

I'll duck out of the thread now and let you carrying on discussing JNT.

Apologies again.

Sorry Nige, I just thought you were being provocative. I think I misread you.

Sorry Tony, I know you didn't, please feel free to carry on discussing JNT, you do make some good points.


Okay, thanks anyway!!!!

Actually, I now feel compelled to go and watch the documentary on the Time & the Rani DVD that arrived this morning. Back later...

Just watched 'Last Chance Saloon', the documentary on Time & the Rani, and it's a real eye opener as far as the BBC's attitude at the time went, and the problems faced and mistakes made in McCoy's first series. The comment regarding JNT being forced to sack Colin baker in return for being allowed to leave, then being forced to stay, resulting in 'one man being very angry that he'd been sacked from Doctor Who, and one man being very angry that he hadn't' says it all, really-and I do agree with McCoy's final comments on his conviction that he was right for the part but just didn't have quite enough time to prove it. He did, indeed, get better.

The Eric Sarward comments about him going to the pub everyday and caring more about money to be made from the convention circuit than anything else remain damaging I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW1CkDKlcR0

JNT cared too much about what the fans thought. RTD was right in that respect (although I agree the term 'ming mongs' isn't helpful). Caring about the die hard fans views lead to a hideous amount of continuity in the likes of Timelash and Attack of the Cybermen, bogging the whole thing down.

I think JNT's decision to push new writers rather than use Robert Holmes and Terrance Dicks was a mistake, hindsight being 20/20 of course. (Sarward had to push hard for Holmes eventual return.)

Well it was the JNT era when I eventually stopped watching the show, for me it had become unbearable awful. I had started to wander towards the end of Peter Davison era as I was finding his Doctor a little dull, although with hindsight and older shoulders I can appreciate him more these days. However, the Colin Bakers and McCoy years are insufferably bad imho, I can only think of one half decent Colin Baker story and can even muster enough false bravado to even pick a McCoy one. I detested the pantomime costumes the Doctor was now wearing, reinforcing that I was watching a childrens programme instead of a family show. The horrendous Am-Dram acting, the flat lifeless directing and editing, the flat lifeless sets brightly lit to take out any sense of involvement with the actors and sets, the exceptionably flat, dated and stilted scripts with terrible dialogue. The diabolical, absolutely diabolical incidental music, the terrible opening credits and 80's synth title music.

So for me the JNT years were beyond reproach, I can not think of one redeeming feature, I can think of a few pleasant scenes here and there, but story, production, direction wise nothing at all.

Nothing against JNT himself I must add, I bared him no grudge or malice at the time and certainly do not now either, no hate or dislike because I didn't like a TV show he was involved in, that would be well just plain ridiculous.

Maybe I was growing up, discovering girls, booze, music and drugs, maybe I was embarrassed about being a Who fan or maybe they really were that bad. Judging from the DVDs I have they really were that bad and I had every right to be embarrassed and disown the show I had grown up with.

Maybe the day Time and the Rani came out on dvd isn't the best day to ask for considered opinions on JNT! I like season 26 though, always will.

JNT wanted to leave after The 5 Doctors, but was told if he did that he'd have to do season 21 as well. What Ting says above about him getting angry and expecting to leave before the McCoy era is also correct - I think there where times in between where he wanted to leave as well (but can't remember any details).

JNT is guilty of nothing more than being forced to stay longer than he wanted to (though hiring Eric Saward as script editor wasn't a good idea IMO). If he'd left when he wanted to he would have been remembered with a lot higher regard than he is (in some quarters).

Personally I think that each of us has 1 idea (maybe two for more talented types) of how he/she thinks the Doctor should be played.... after that it becomes a bit forced..... and that's where the problems started with the CB and later the SM eras

An excellent point darthdibble. I think too much focus for the demise of the Colin Baker/Mcoy years has been put on budget but for myself it was simple the stories were just not up to scratch. I thought the series had taken a massive step backwards instead of moving forward in the post Star Wars era. It simply look dated, and in terms of story, plotting and ideas is was dated and had become a pale relic of its former self.

The show simply did not move forward for me, nothing to do with budget or effects.

Which is a shame as I completely admit that C.Baker and Mcoy would have made excellent long lasting Doctors if given strong modern scripts instead of the junk they were given. Imagine McCoy running around in a baggy dark suit instead of a costume, imagine Baker in similar garbs instead of that horrendous coat. Imaging Davison in an Eccleston era leather Jacket. Imagine no stupid question marks. Imagine a bit of imagination when it came to lighting the sets and so on.

As I said in a different post. There was nothing wrong with the CB era (specifically in 1985 when the programme was put on 'hiatus') that a new producer and script editor couldn't solve.

And whatever you think about Andrew Cartmell there was at least some new ideas coming through.


I've always heard this as the biggest mistake of his era (glad you reminded me) - the Myrka in 'Warriors' being the one thing that would have been massivly improved had they not lit it up like a Christmas tree.