If this thread does one thing, it certainly proves JNT was very controversial.
John Nathan-Turner. The Most Controversial Person Ever?
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Originally Posted by wildbill_hicock:
“If this thread does one thing, it certainly proves JNT was very controversial.”
“If this thread does one thing, it certainly proves JNT was very controversial.”
It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
Sorry Ting, if lots of people are disagreeing about him, that's almost a text book definition of controversial.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
In what way does this thread "prove" anything? I take it that you "understand" JNT's problems but everyone who disagrees with you doesn't?
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
“It proves he was, and still is, underappreciated by a lot of people who don't seem to understand the problems he had to deal with and don't want to know, either.”
Such as, would you like to list them all out for us who are not convinced that he was indeed the reincarnation of Philip Hinchcliffe??
Personally still think he was out of his depth and didn't have the creative streak to take on the producer role of Doctor Who, and it shows in a lot of his produced stories IMHO.
Originally Posted by CAMERA OBSCURA:
“Exactly, that is one of the points I am trying to make. For a producer to take the artistic view to ignore the direction and style Harper brought to 'Caves' in order to churn out 'The Twin Dilemna' and the flat production values (and I don't mean in term of budget) of subsequent stories is rather head scratching.
I fully understand that Who thrives on diversity in styles and not everything should look like 'Caves' but take the recent series 'Vincent' and then the final two Parter, two completely different approaches in style, writing and direction but and it a big BUT the talent is there behind the camera in terms directors, sets, editing, costumes, lighting to pull those two contrasts off. Again regardless of budget, was it Peter Davison on one of his commentaries that said something like 'turn the lights down' ?
So that flat look was creeping in before C.Baker and McCoy, again it kind of reinforces your 'Caves' 'Dilemma' comparison.
Ghost Light, off the top of my head, managed it in terms of production and direction but that's about it, the rest were as flat as a pancake, uninspired, limp and lifeless almost on the verge of fan videos imo.”
“Exactly, that is one of the points I am trying to make. For a producer to take the artistic view to ignore the direction and style Harper brought to 'Caves' in order to churn out 'The Twin Dilemna' and the flat production values (and I don't mean in term of budget) of subsequent stories is rather head scratching.
I fully understand that Who thrives on diversity in styles and not everything should look like 'Caves' but take the recent series 'Vincent' and then the final two Parter, two completely different approaches in style, writing and direction but and it a big BUT the talent is there behind the camera in terms directors, sets, editing, costumes, lighting to pull those two contrasts off. Again regardless of budget, was it Peter Davison on one of his commentaries that said something like 'turn the lights down' ?
So that flat look was creeping in before C.Baker and McCoy, again it kind of reinforces your 'Caves' 'Dilemma' comparison.
Ghost Light, off the top of my head, managed it in terms of production and direction but that's about it, the rest were as flat as a pancake, uninspired, limp and lifeless almost on the verge of fan videos imo.”
I think the flat look took over as soon as he started production to be honest, that and being teamed with Christopher H Bidmead was a horrendous combination, and Tom's last season is seriously dull, I can't even watch Logopolis anymore, it is a woefully inadequate end to 7 years in the role for Tom.
He offered no creative spark and was a bean counter and didn;t surround himself with strong creative people to make up for his weaknesses.
Interesting thread. For me, JNT's tenure as producer was a strange mix.He oversaw some good stories, Logopolis, Black Orchid & Caves springs to mind, made some good castng decisions, Peter Davison and Colin Baker (given a chance could have been a great Doctor) but was weak in not reigning in Tom's shall we say over whelming personality, poor choice in my and many other peoples opinions, in casting Sylvestor, some dreadfull stories Warriors of the deep and Twin Dilemma to name but two. But bearing in mind the difficult times he faced in the late 80's I thik he did a fair old job of keeping a programme that no one in the upper echilons of the BBC seemed to like, going for as long as it did.
Originally Posted by No.6:
“I think the flat look took over as soon as he started production to be honest, that and being teamed with Christopher H Bidmead was a horrendous combination, and Tom's last season is seriously dull, I can't even watch Logopolis anymore, it is a woefully inadequate end to 7 years in the role for Tom.
He offered no creative spark and was a bean counter and didn;t surround himself with strong creative people to make up for his weaknesses.”
“I think the flat look took over as soon as he started production to be honest, that and being teamed with Christopher H Bidmead was a horrendous combination, and Tom's last season is seriously dull, I can't even watch Logopolis anymore, it is a woefully inadequate end to 7 years in the role for Tom.
He offered no creative spark and was a bean counter and didn;t surround himself with strong creative people to make up for his weaknesses.”
And yet, to me season 18 is about the best since Hinchcliffe left, and one of the best seasons overall-Doctor who actually trying to be real science fiction for a change, and for the most part succeeding
. I think warriors Gate and Full Circle, in particular, are two of the best stories of Tom's tenure. I wish Bidmead had stayed longer.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“And yet, to me season 18 is about the best since Hinchcliffe left, and one of the best seasons overall-Doctor who actually trying to be real science fiction for a change, and for the most part succeeding
. I think warriors Gate and Full Circle, in particular, are two of the best stories of Tom's tenure. I wish Bidmead had stayed longer.”
“And yet, to me season 18 is about the best since Hinchcliffe left, and one of the best seasons overall-Doctor who actually trying to be real science fiction for a change, and for the most part succeeding
. I think warriors Gate and Full Circle, in particular, are two of the best stories of Tom's tenure. I wish Bidmead had stayed longer.”
Crickey I agree with you for once. !
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“And yet, to me season 18 is about the best since Hinchcliffe left, and one of the best seasons overall-Doctor who actually trying to be real science fiction for a change, and for the most part succeeding
. I think warriors Gate and Full Circle, in particular, are two of the best stories of Tom's tenure. I wish Bidmead had stayed longer.”
“And yet, to me season 18 is about the best since Hinchcliffe left, and one of the best seasons overall-Doctor who actually trying to be real science fiction for a change, and for the most part succeeding
. I think warriors Gate and Full Circle, in particular, are two of the best stories of Tom's tenure. I wish Bidmead had stayed longer.”
Doctor Who was never designed to be proper sci-fi, the introduction of Bidmead's pseudo-science ideas, especially in Logopolis, was dull as dishwater.
Warriors Gate is stylish, but there isn't much of a plot going on in there.
You haven't mentioned Adric yet I see...
Originally Posted by andy1231:
“Crickey I agree with you for once. !”
“Crickey I agree with you for once. !”
Warrior's Gate in particular is visually stunning, and I love the ideas in those stories. That was around the time I became a really obsessive fan.
Originally Posted by No.6:
“IHe offered no creative spark and was a bean counter and didn;t surround himself with strong creative people to make up for his weaknesses.”
“IHe offered no creative spark and was a bean counter and didn;t surround himself with strong creative people to make up for his weaknesses.”
i think you have hit the nail on the head. He was an accountant, he brought budgets in on time but he wasnt creative.
The previous producers had literary and creative backgrounds ie Hinchcliffe, Williams, Verity. JNT didnt - and he didnt surround himself with those who could. He was frightened of those who wrote before because and so didnt ask them back.
He brought in jobsworth directors who wouldnt provide oppositon to him and his casting ****-ups are legendary.His mind was more geared towards panto then Sci-Fi.
He was the wrong man for the wrong job and the BBC kept him on life support - until they had no choice to put it out of their misery.
Absolute rubbish. If he'd been the wrong man for the job, he wouldn't have lasted a decade in the job. As for Graham Williams, I liked a fair few of the stories he oversaw, but he was no JNT. The show was in a decline by 1979, and JNT and Bidmead rescued it.
You have to admit though the series fell down after that transfer. I watch stories from WH,PT,JP and TB era all the time but there has to be something really inportant to make me watch any from the other errors. Alright, maybe the same with Tom Baker. I only watch a few of those later Docs and only if its important or interesting. Five Doctors, caves of Androzani, Two Doctors, Remembrance of the Daleks and Survival are the only stories i've seen from that later era. And then when you think about it. Its just the same as it was when tom baker was arround. Which is a bad thing. It didn't evolve like it should have done. It simply stood still and the stories got worse and predictable. Also budget was low. If maybe it had shifted to the times it might have survived. But however it did not.
Now, most of my knowledge of JNT has been supplied thanks to this very arguement and I have managed to make my opinion on the matter. Also, using my own experiences to help decide.
Anyway this doesn't mean I hate that era. I love all eras! The cancellation and drop In viewings are all part of the shows history. Without it what are we? Fans of a show thats been going on since 1963 without end maybe. But we are still fans of an excellent scifi show that has had its bad times as well as its good times.
There. My soppy movie style "Stop fighting!" attempt. If that fails to sway you to.......to....... agreement? Peace? Well Whatever. Then, please go on arguing. Oh and don't forget to take my words and scramble them around so it sounds like a anti JNT agenda.
(Alright, its kind of fun watching you all argue. Don't take offense! 
Also, do keep arguing if you so please. I shall continue watching and I shall only retaliate if someone takes my post and mocks or kills it with abuse. Otherwise, please state why I may be wrong and that I should change my mind.)
Now, most of my knowledge of JNT has been supplied thanks to this very arguement and I have managed to make my opinion on the matter. Also, using my own experiences to help decide.
Anyway this doesn't mean I hate that era. I love all eras! The cancellation and drop In viewings are all part of the shows history. Without it what are we? Fans of a show thats been going on since 1963 without end maybe. But we are still fans of an excellent scifi show that has had its bad times as well as its good times.
There. My soppy movie style "Stop fighting!" attempt. If that fails to sway you to.......to....... agreement? Peace? Well Whatever. Then, please go on arguing. Oh and don't forget to take my words and scramble them around so it sounds like a anti JNT agenda.
(Alright, its kind of fun watching you all argue. Don't take offense!
Also, do keep arguing if you so please. I shall continue watching and I shall only retaliate if someone takes my post and mocks or kills it with abuse. Otherwise, please state why I may be wrong and that I should change my mind.)
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Absolute rubbish. If he'd been the wrong man for the job, he wouldn't have lasted a decade in the job. As for Graham Williams, I liked a fair few of the stories he oversaw, but he was no JNT. The show was in a decline by 1979, and JNT and Bidmead rescued it.”
“Absolute rubbish. If he'd been the wrong man for the job, he wouldn't have lasted a decade in the job. As for Graham Williams, I liked a fair few of the stories he oversaw, but he was no JNT. The show was in a decline by 1979, and JNT and Bidmead rescued it.”
He lasted the decade because the BBC lost the will to find a replacement.
The decline happened with season 18. Episode 4 of Horns of Nimon 10 million viewers, episode 4 of Leisure Hive - 4.3 million viewers.
A loss of five million viewers after one story.
Originally Posted by broadshoulder:
“He lasted the decade because the BBC lost the will to find a replacement.
The decline happened with season 18. Episode 4 of Horns of Nimon 10 million viewers, episode 4 of Leisure Hive - 4.3 million viewers.
A loss of five million viewers after one story.”
“He lasted the decade because the BBC lost the will to find a replacement.
The decline happened with season 18. Episode 4 of Horns of Nimon 10 million viewers, episode 4 of Leisure Hive - 4.3 million viewers.
A loss of five million viewers after one story.”
Are you serious? If not, your memory is seriously deficient!
You do realise, presumably, that the reason not only Doctor Who but pretty much everything the BBC transmitted in the latter part of 1979 got hugely increased viewing figures because ITV were on strike and there was nothing else to watch? The Horns of Nimon and the stories that immediately preceded it got ratings far higher than those the season before or the season after, purely because the alternative was a blank screen. Hardly a convincing argument. OK, the last few episodes followed ITV's return, but people were hardly going to switch off stories they'd already been watching, were they? Whereas season 18 came up against a glossy new US import on ITV.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Are you serious? If not, your memory is seriously deficient!
You do realise, presumably, that the reason not only Doctor Who but pretty much everything the BBC transmitted in the latter part of 1979 got hugely increased viewing figures because ITV were on strike and there was nothing else to watch? The Horns of Nimon and the stories that immediately preceded it got ratings far higher than those the season before or the season after, purely because the alternative was a blank screen. Hardly a convincing argument. OK, the last few episodes followed ITV's return, but people were hardly going to switch off stories they'd already been watching, were they? Whereas season 18 came up against a glossy new US import on ITV.”
“Are you serious? If not, your memory is seriously deficient!
You do realise, presumably, that the reason not only Doctor Who but pretty much everything the BBC transmitted in the latter part of 1979 got hugely increased viewing figures because ITV were on strike and there was nothing else to watch? The Horns of Nimon and the stories that immediately preceded it got ratings far higher than those the season before or the season after, purely because the alternative was a blank screen. Hardly a convincing argument. OK, the last few episodes followed ITV's return, but people were hardly going to switch off stories they'd already been watching, were they? Whereas season 18 came up against a glossy new US import on ITV.”
The ITV strike ended in October 1979 and "The Horns of Nimon" was on in December and it's ratings weren't as impressive as "The Invasion of Time" the previous year. Looks like it's your memory which is "deficient".
Originally Posted by outside:
“The ITV strike ended in October 1979 and "The Horns of Nimon" was on in December and it's ratings weren't as impressive as "The Invasion of Time" the previous year. Looks like it's your memory which is "deficient".”
“The ITV strike ended in October 1979 and "The Horns of Nimon" was on in December and it's ratings weren't as impressive as "The Invasion of Time" the previous year. Looks like it's your memory which is "deficient".”
Nimon's weren't, but I actually referred to that season as a whole doing better than the ones on either side. So: Which episode of story got the highest single ratings in the show's history? And why?
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Nimon's weren't, but I actually referred to that season as a whole doing better than the ones on either side. So: Which episode of story got the highest single ratings in the show's history? And why?”
“Nimon's weren't, but I actually referred to that season as a whole doing better than the ones on either side. So: Which episode of story got the highest single ratings in the show's history? And why?”
Both broadshoulder and your good self mention "The Horns of Nimon".
You must be clearer in your posts - I'm not telepathic. 
I liked JNt cause of "All creatures orginally" but hated what happened to dr who after PD regenerated , who choose C Baker as the dr , who dressed him up like as clown, who wrote the worst dr who stories ever and who let Bonnie Langford dress up like a rag doll? the liquorice monster in mcoy's era was the final straw and nearly ended my love for dr who completely luckily the film saved me from hating DW and then Chris and David renegerated my love oh and that man called Russell didnt do badly eitherJonthan loved the show but showed it in a weird way but in fairness , it was the ott 80s so everything was ghastly in them days !
Originally Posted by outside:
“Both broadshoulder and your good self mention "The Horns of Nimon". You must be clearer in your posts - I'm not telepathic. ”
“Both broadshoulder and your good self mention "The Horns of Nimon".
You must be clearer in your posts - I'm not telepathic. ”
I wasnt talking about the entire season. I was talking about the last episode of one story which aired after the ITV strike and got 10 million viewers...
Wheras the Leisure Hive got....
Originally Posted by broadshoulder:
“I wasnt talking about the entire season. I was talking about the last episode of one story which aired after the ITV strike and got 10 million viewers...
Wheras the Leisure Hive got....”
“I wasnt talking about the entire season. I was talking about the last episode of one story which aired after the ITV strike and got 10 million viewers...
Wheras the Leisure Hive got....”
I know exactly what you were talking about, broadshoulder - I wasn't talking about the whole season, either.
Something to be mentioned-it seems to be JNT who started the tradition of "stunt casting" in Doctor Who, casting folk who were already celebs in the hope of getting attention for the program. Sometimes this worked very well (Richard Todd and Nerys Hughes in Kinda, Eleanor Bron in Revelation) but other times it was just ridiculous (Sarah Green? Leee John?).
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Nimon's weren't, but I actually referred to that season as a whole doing better than the ones on either side. So: Which episode of story got the highest single ratings in the show's history? And why?”
“Nimon's weren't, but I actually referred to that season as a whole doing better than the ones on either side. So: Which episode of story got the highest single ratings in the show's history? And why?”
Wasn't it one of the City of Death episodes? (maybe ep Two ??) Because of a strike with Anglia or ITV or something... I've a feeling this is well known and I'm missing some part of this debate ?
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Absolute rubbish. If he'd been the wrong man for the job, he wouldn't have lasted a decade in the job. As for Graham Williams, I liked a fair few of the stories he oversaw, but he was no JNT. The show was in a decline by 1979, and JNT and Bidmead rescued it.”
“Absolute rubbish. If he'd been the wrong man for the job, he wouldn't have lasted a decade in the job. As for Graham Williams, I liked a fair few of the stories he oversaw, but he was no JNT. The show was in a decline by 1979, and JNT and Bidmead rescued it.”
"1979: City of Death, Doctor Who in decline
1989: Battlefield, part of one of Doctor Who's best seasons"
I do think you have some seriously strange views about Doctor Who!
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