Will there be ANY scoring from the judges this year?

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Glanbraint

20-09-2010

Originally Posted by Tiger Rose:
“In all honesty there have been surprise exits from good dancers with or without the dance off (Spoony, Gabby, Zoe Lucker) & also weaker dancers lasting for a while.

Personally I would still prefer them to keep the dance off up to the quarter finals or whenever it is they start to do 2 dances & then abandon it. I think this would be a good compromise as it would mean less risk of good dancers going too early but also mean that the public have more say at the later stages which is as it should be. Under this format we would never have had Lisa being saved over Austin for example.”

....And never would have got to see Bacofoilgate!!!!!

David Tee

21-09-2010

Originally Posted by Monkseal:
“Using the amount of points the judges award to determine the proportion of power is incorrect, so long as the judges are forced to rank the couples at most one point apart. If they were allowed to distribute those points as they saw fit (as would be the case in a system where the judges scores counted proportionately to the result as they do in America) then that'd be right.

As it is that argument states that if the judges gave out scores in the order of 100-99-98-97-96-95-94-93-92-91 and the public 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1- they'd have 95% of the power. This is clearly untrue - they'd have exactly the same amount of power as they do now. Power lies in the standard deviation of scores, not the raw amount - hence the new way of scoring ties gives the judges less power, not more, as it forces less deviation.”

It's got nothing to do with deviation. Points are awarded by both the judges and the public. Those points are then combined. Whoever contributes the most points will have the most influence.

Let's take an extreme example: If the judges were able to award 1,000 points across 10 competitors, and the public were only able to award 10 points - the points from the public would have an almost negligible effect on the final ranking when the points were combined. In this example, the judges influence over the result is massive.

Taking a much less extreme example: If the judges were able to award 20 points across 10 competitors, and the public were only able to award 10 points - the points from the public would definitely have an effect on the final ranking when the points were combined, but the effect wouldn't be as large as the judges for the simple reason that the judges are giving away more points.

Whoever gives away more points has more influence. The public are never in a position to give away more points - but, because ties can exist after their votes, the judges are able to do so.

If I remember correctly, there was one occasion las year where 6 (or was it 7?) couples were tied on various scores. On that occasion the number of points awarded by the judges was considerably more than the public.

Monkseal

21-09-2010

Quote:
“Let's take an extreme example: If the judges were able to award 1,000 points across 10 competitors, and the public were only able to award 10 points - the points from the public would have an almost negligible effect on the final ranking when the points were combined. In this example, the judges influence over the result is massive.”

It isn't if the judges are forced to place the contestants at most one point apart. Which they are. The judges could give out billions of points to 10 contestants, and if they couldn't force the contestants to be more than one point apart, they have exactly the same amount of power as if them gave them 10 down to 1.

For example :

105+1=106
104+8=112
103+5=108
102+7=109
101+4=105
100+9=109
99+5=104
98+2=100
97+6=103
96+10=106

gives the same exact result, with the exact same bottom two and exact same elimination as

10+1=11
9+8=17
8+5=13
7+7=14
6+4=12
5+9=14
4+5=9
3+2=5
2+6=8
1+10=11

The example of Tom's dance-off is the perfect one. Under the old system :

Lisa : 3+1=4
Rachel : 3+2=5
Tom : 1+3=4

Judges points : 7, Judges s.d : 1.2

Lisa : 3+1=4
Rachel : 3+2=5
Tom : 2+3=5

Judges points : 8, judges s.d 0.6

In the latter scenario, the judges least favourite (Tom) is more likely to stay, and their favourites (Lisa and Rachel) are more likely to go. This is despite them having given out more points - because the sd is lower. The new system of breaking ties gives LESS power to the judges, because it bunches their scores closer together, reducing the sd, and hence their influence over the outcome.

Your argument is akin to claiming that a judge who gives out 10s to every dance has more influence over the judges total than someone who uses the full range of 1 to 10. Not the case-because the sd of their scores is nil. They're a pointless judge, not a powerful one.

phoebefair

21-09-2010

Did any of you go and see "A Disappearing Number"?

spider9

21-09-2010

Well there's a post you don't often see on DS.

*goes off to find something about how rubbish Anton is at latin or dancer's height*

Sallyforth

21-09-2010

If both public vote and judges score resulted in an aggregate placing and not a points quota, would that be a fairer distribution of favour from both sides - or am I missing something hugely significant?

Grannyannie

21-09-2010

Monkseal and David Tee - where were you when I failed my maths 'O' level (three times actually)

phoebefair

21-09-2010

Originally Posted by Grannyannie:
“Monkseal and David Tee - where were you when I failed my maths 'O' level (three times actually)”

They were failing too. Or teaching you.

David Tee

21-09-2010

Originally Posted by Grannyannie:
“Monkseal and David Tee - where were you when I failed my maths 'O' level (three times actually)”

Monkseal's the one you need , Granny - he got it spot on. Mine was an epic fail....

BruciesToupe

21-09-2010

i'm happy its back to the viewers vote..

Hated the dance off with a vengeance, it kind of took the suspence out of it as the judges favourites were mostly easy to call.

Happy days!

rickster1995

21-09-2010

well when anne is up against say kara in the bottom two and anne is saved. people will be shouting to get it back :P

Philly1234

24-09-2010

Wasn't there something about Len breaking ties in the scoring? Or was that just for that one-off Christmas special? I can't remember if the scores have been tied since then.

Bonnie96

24-09-2010

I did this last year when we were all wondering what happens when it's down to 4 couples and there is a Dance Off.

Actual points are given positional marks 4 down to 1.

Highlighted entries are when the Judges top 2 are in the Dance Off.

Underlined entries = the dance off follows the original leaderboard

LB = Leaderboard, PV = Phone Vote
LB+PV=Final Score

4+4=8 3+3=6 2+2=4 1+1=2 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+3=6 2+1=3 1+2=3 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+2=5 2+1=3 1+3=4 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+1=4 2+2=4 1+3=4 LB 2nd+3rd DO
4+4=8 3+1=4 2+3=5 1+2=3 LB 2nd+Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+2=5 2+3=5 1+1=2 LB 2nd+Bottom DO

4+3=7 3+4=7 2+2=4 1+1=2 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+4=7 2+1=3 1+2=3 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+2=5 2+4=6 1+1=2 LB 2nd+Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+1=4 2+4=6 1+2=3 LB 2nd+Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+2=5 2+1=3 1+4=5 LB 2nd+3rd DO
4+3=7 3+1=4 2+2=4 1+4=5 LB 2nd+3rd DO

4+2=6 3+4=7 2+3=5 1+1=2 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+4=7 2+1=3 1+3=4 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+3=6 2+1=3 1+4=5 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+3=6 2+4=6 1+1=2 LB Top + Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+1=4 2+4=6 1+3=4 LB 2nd+Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+1=4 2+3=5 1+4=5 LB 2nd+3rd DO

4+1=5 3+4=7 2+2=4 1+3=4 LB 3rd+Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+4=7 2+3=5 1+2=3 LB Top + Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+3=6 2+4=6 1+2=3 LB Top + Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+2=5 2+4=6 1+3=4 LB Top + Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+3=6 2+2=4 1+4=5 LB Top+3rd DO
4+1=5 3+2=5 2+3=5 1+4=5 LB Top+2nd DO

Ties:
Leaderboard = Bold

4 4 4 3
4+4=8 4+3=7 4+2=6 3+1=4 LB 1/3 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+3=7 4+1=5 3+2=5 LB 1/3 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+2=6 4+1=5 3+3=6 LB 2/3 tied Top DO
4+3=7 4+2=6 4+1=5 3+4=7 LB 2/3 tied Top DO

4 4 3 3
4+4=8 4+3=7 3+2=5 3+1=4 LB 2/2 tied Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+2=6 3+3=6 3+1=4 LB 1/2 tied Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+1=5 3+3=6 3+2=5 LB 1/2 tied Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+3=7 4+2=6 3+4=7 3+1=4 LB 1/2 tied Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+3=7 4+1=5 3+4=7 3+2=5 LB 1/2 tied Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+1=5 4+2=6 3+3=6 3+4=7 LB 2/2 tied Top DO

4 3 3 3
4+4=8 3+3=6 3+2=5 3+1=4 LB 2/3 tied Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+4=7 3+2=5 3+1=4 LB 2/3 tied Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+4=7 3+3=6 3+1=4 LB Top + 1/3 tied Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+4=7 3+3=6 3+2=5 LB Top + 1/3 tied Bottom DO

4 4 3 2
4+4=8 4+3=7 3+2=5 2+1=3 LB 2nd + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+3=7 3+1=4 2+2=4 LB 2nd + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+2=6 3+1=4 2+3=5 LB 2nd + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+2=6 3+3=6 2+1=3 LB 1/2 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+1=5 3+3=6 2+2=4 LB 1/2 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+3=7 4+2=6 3+4=7 2+1=3 LB 1/2 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+3=7 4+1=5 3+4=7 2+2=4 LB 1/2 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+2=6 4+1=5 3+4=7 2+3=5 LB 1/2 tied Top + Bottom DO
4+4=8 4+1=5 3+2=5 2+3=5 LB 1/2 tied Top + 2nd DO
4+3=7 4+2=6 3+1=4 2+4=6 LB 1/2 tied Top + 2nd DO
4+3=7 4+1=5 3+2=5 2+4=6 LB 1/2 tied Top + 2nd DO
4+2=6 4+1=5 3+3=6 2+4=6 LB 2/2 tied Top DO

4 3 3 2
4+1=5 3+2=5 3+3=6 2+4=6 LB Top + 1/2 tied 2nd DO
4+1=5 3+4=7 3+2=5 2+3=5 LB Top + 1/2 tied 2nd DO
4+1=5 3+3=6 3+4=7 2+2=4 LB Top + Bottom DO

4+2=6 3+1=4 3+4=7 2+3=5 LB 1/2 tied 2nd + Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+1=4 3+3=6 2+4=6 LB Top + 1/2 tied 2nd DO
4+2=6 3+3=6 3+4=7 2+1=3 LB Top + Bottom DO

4+3=7 3+4=7 3+2=5 2+1=3 LB 1/2 tied 2nd + Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+1=4 3+4=7 2+2=4 LB 1/2 tied 2nd + Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+1=4 3+2=5 2+4=6 LB 2/2 tied 2nd DO

4+4=8 3+2=5 3+3=6 2+1=3 LB 1/2 tied 2nd + Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+1=4 3+3=6 2+2=4 LB 1/2 tied 2nd + Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+1=4 3+2=5 2+3=5 LB 2/2 tied 2nd DO

4 3 2 2
4+1=5 3+2=5 2+3=5 2+4=6 LB Top + 2nd DO
4+3=7 3+4=7 2+1=3 2+2=4 LB 2/2 tied Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+3=6 2+1=3 2+2=4 LB 2/2 tied Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+1=4 2+3=5 2+4=6 LB 2nd + 1/2 tied Bottom DO

4+2=6 3+4=7 2+1=3 2+3=5 LB 2/2 tied Bottom DO
4+1=5 3+3=6 2+2=4 2+4=6 LB Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+1=4 2+2=4 2+4=6 LB 2nd + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+2=5 2+1=3 2+3=5 LB 2nd + 1/2 tied Bottom DO

4+1=5 3+4=7 2+2=4 2+3=5 LB Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+4=8 3+1=4 2+2=4 2+3=5 LB 2nd + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+2=6 3+3=7 2+1=3 2+4=6 LB Top + 1/2 tied Bottom DO
4+3=7 3+2=5 2+1=3 2+4=6 LB 2nd + 1/2 tied Bottom DO

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