On BBC 3 now - surely the best episode of all of the the whole Dr Who comeback - closely followed by Blink and Turn Left .
The Girl in the Fireplace
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I'd put Human Nature/Family of Blood, Father's Day, Turn Left, Dalek, School Reunion, Partners In Crime, Satan Pit all ahead. (And probably a few more)
It's definitely a contender for best. Other contenders: Dalek, Father's Day, Human Nature/the other one and Eleventh Hour.
There are indeed other episodes better than TGITF but I do enjoy it. It's definately one of the strongest. The story is very good and the ending is quite poignant.
As a side note... Ever wonder if your whole life is being stalked on a spaceship?
As a side note... Ever wonder if your whole life is being stalked on a spaceship?
Originally Posted by lordOfTime:
“As a side note... Ever wonder if your whole life is being stalked on a spaceship?”
“As a side note... Ever wonder if your whole life is being stalked on a spaceship?
”
I'm confident that it isn't. But I do sometimes wonder who will be the first great historical figure whose entire life can be tracked in retrospect through Facebook, etc.
Originally Posted by TEDR:
“I'm confident that it isn't. But I do sometimes wonder who will be the first great historical figure whose entire life can be tracked in retrospect through Facebook, etc.”
“I'm confident that it isn't. But I do sometimes wonder who will be the first great historical figure whose entire life can be tracked in retrospect through Facebook, etc.”
Somehow I think technology has a long while to go before that happens
I do wonder how he (Moffat) came up with this idea. Was it aliens stalking a famous person, then pick a historical figure to base it around. Or, he liked the idea of a story based on Madame de Pompadour?
I like The Girl In The Fireplace but I personally don't think it's the best story in New Who. There are others that are better but it's not the worse either, not by a long shot!!!! 
Watched it and loved it as always. It's visually beautiful and wonderfully written and acted.
Having also re-watched School Reunion the other night, I was struck by the way Rose came across in both these two (consecutive) episodes. In both stories, her nose was put out of joint by a rival female taking up the Doctor's attention, and in both episodes she had a conversation with said rival female in which she was told that being with the doctor is worth the pain that goes along with it. (Sarah Jane: "Some things are worth getting your heart broken for" and Reinette: "The Doctor is worth the monsters.")
Interesting to see how differently Rose was portrayed in the two scenarios. In School Reunion, she just seems jealous, childish and bitchy (until she mellows and bonds with SJ). But in TGITF, there's genuine depth and feeling there and you really sympathise with Rose's feeling of being abandoned by the Doctor, especially when she's standing there looking devastated after the Doctor rides the horse through the mirror and can't get back.
Not sure where I'm going with this really. I guess it's just interesting to see how the same scenario--Rose being sidelined for a rival--can have such a different impact on the viewer's feelings towards the character.
One thing puzzled me about Rose's behaviour in School Reunion. By the end, she seemed to have come round to the idea of SJ and even encouraged the Doctor to invite her on board. So why did she (Rose) get so sulky over the idea of Mickey travelling with them?
Having also re-watched School Reunion the other night, I was struck by the way Rose came across in both these two (consecutive) episodes. In both stories, her nose was put out of joint by a rival female taking up the Doctor's attention, and in both episodes she had a conversation with said rival female in which she was told that being with the doctor is worth the pain that goes along with it. (Sarah Jane: "Some things are worth getting your heart broken for" and Reinette: "The Doctor is worth the monsters.")
Interesting to see how differently Rose was portrayed in the two scenarios. In School Reunion, she just seems jealous, childish and bitchy (until she mellows and bonds with SJ). But in TGITF, there's genuine depth and feeling there and you really sympathise with Rose's feeling of being abandoned by the Doctor, especially when she's standing there looking devastated after the Doctor rides the horse through the mirror and can't get back.
Not sure where I'm going with this really. I guess it's just interesting to see how the same scenario--Rose being sidelined for a rival--can have such a different impact on the viewer's feelings towards the character.
One thing puzzled me about Rose's behaviour in School Reunion. By the end, she seemed to have come round to the idea of SJ and even encouraged the Doctor to invite her on board. So why did she (Rose) get so sulky over the idea of Mickey travelling with them?
Except that Sarah Jane was not a 'rival', and that whole thing in School Reunion was totally out of character for her, an utterly pointless retcon of her character to add a relationship that was never there before.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Except that Sarah Jane was not a 'rival', and that whole thing in School Reunion was totally out of character for her, an utterly pointless retcon of her character to add a relationship that was never there before.”
“Except that Sarah Jane was not a 'rival', and that whole thing in School Reunion was totally out of character for her, an utterly pointless retcon of her character to add a relationship that was never there before.”
Agreed!
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Except that Sarah Jane was not a 'rival', and that whole thing in School Reunion was totally out of character for her, an utterly pointless retcon of her character to add a relationship that was never there before.”
“Except that Sarah Jane was not a 'rival', and that whole thing in School Reunion was totally out of character for her, an utterly pointless retcon of her character to add a relationship that was never there before.”
You can have your heart broken by a friend - in the way of a betrayal - it doesn't necessarily have to be in a sexual way.
She definitely had a relationship of sorts with the doctor, and for her to be dumped in Aberdeen (not at her request), and never to see him again, must have made her wonder what she had done wrong.
She had a long time to ponder about what she was missing - time travel and such like, and also to think she is being punished. And gave her time to grow up, and change, she was not the same person that the doctor left in Aberdeen, and that was acknowledged in the script. Her heart may have wanted to travel with him again, but her head knew that she couldn't.
To be replaced by a younger model is a bit insulting too, and thought that the rival interaction - not for the love of the doctor, but for the 'best' friendship of the doctor - was very real.
You really do have to rewatch the RTD years with the blinkers off this time.
Originally Posted by Salford_Who:
“You can have your heart broken by a friend - in the way of a betrayal - it doesn't necessarily have to be in a sexual way.
She definitely had a relationship of sorts with the doctor, and for her to be dumped in Aberdeen (not at her request), and never to see him again, must have made her wonder what she had done wrong.”
“You can have your heart broken by a friend - in the way of a betrayal - it doesn't necessarily have to be in a sexual way.
She definitely had a relationship of sorts with the doctor, and for her to be dumped in Aberdeen (not at her request), and never to see him again, must have made her wonder what she had done wrong.”
She knew she hadn't dione anything 'wrong', that's totally at odds with the end of Hand of Fear. He takes her home (and there's no way that was Aberdeen) because he has to, and she understands that.
Quote:
“She had a long time to ponder about what she was missing - time travel and such like, and also to think she is being punished. And gave her time to grow up, and change, she was not the same person that the doctor left in Aberdeen, and that was acknowledged in the script. Her heart may have wanted to, but her head knew that she couldn't.”
“She had a long time to ponder about what she was missing - time travel and such like, and also to think she is being punished. And gave her time to grow up, and change, she was not the same person that the doctor left in Aberdeen, and that was acknowledged in the script. Her heart may have wanted to, but her head knew that she couldn't.”
Trouble is, the Sarah in School Reunion is also not the same character Sladen had been playing in audio and video spinoffs since the mid nineties, or who appeared in The Five Doctors in '83 or K9 & Company in '81. It totally altered her established character-not a character established thirty years before, but a character that had developed since then.
Quote:
“To be replaced by a younger model is a bit insulting too, and thought that the rival interaction - not for the love of the doctor, but for the 'best' friendship of the doctor - was very real.
You really do have to rewatch the RTD years with the blinkers off this time.”
“To be replaced by a younger model is a bit insulting too, and thought that the rival interaction - not for the love of the doctor, but for the 'best' friendship of the doctor - was very real.
You really do have to rewatch the RTD years with the blinkers off this time.”
I don't, y'know.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“ the Sarah in School Reunion is also not the same character Sladen had been playing in audio and video spinoffs since the mid nineties.”
“ the Sarah in School Reunion is also not the same character Sladen had been playing in audio and video spinoffs since the mid nineties.”
How many times do you have to be told - audios are not canon.
And as for the five doctors, and k9 & Co, that's still over 20 years ago - it would have been completely wrong for sarah jane to behave the same way as she did 20 years ago.
People change as they get older.
Originally Posted by Salford_Who:
“How many times do you have to be told - audios are not canon.”
“How many times do you have to be told - audios are not canon.”
How many times do you have to be told: that's only your opinion, and others disagree.
Quote:
“And as for the five doctors, and k9 & Co, that's still over 20 years ago - it would have been completely wrong for sarah jane to behave the same way as she did 20 years ago.
People change as they get older.”
“And as for the five doctors, and k9 & Co, that's still over 20 years ago - it would have been completely wrong for sarah jane to behave the same way as she did 20 years ago.
People change as they get older.”
Not in a few months they don't, and that's how long before School Reunion the last series of Sarah Jane audios was. You might be happy to dismiss that, but I am not.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“She knew she hadn't dione anything 'wrong', that's totally at odds with the end of Hand of Fear. He takes her home (and there's no way that was Aberdeen) because he has to, and she understands that. Trouble is, the Sarah in School Reunion is also not the same character Sladen had been playing in audio and video spinoffs since the mid nineties, or who appeared in The Five Doctors in '83 or K9 & Company in '81. It totally altered her established character-not a character established thirty years before, but a character that had developed since then.I don't, y'know.”
“She knew she hadn't dione anything 'wrong', that's totally at odds with the end of Hand of Fear. He takes her home (and there's no way that was Aberdeen) because he has to, and she understands that. Trouble is, the Sarah in School Reunion is also not the same character Sladen had been playing in audio and video spinoffs since the mid nineties, or who appeared in The Five Doctors in '83 or K9 & Company in '81. It totally altered her established character-not a character established thirty years before, but a character that had developed since then.I don't, y'know.”
Lots wrong with this post! Yes, she understood that he had to leave her when he did, however it's fair to assume that their relationship was extremely close after 3 years or so of living together, so she would realistically have expected him to return to her at some point, and the fact he never did must have hurt. I have no problem with the character having changed a little from the Sarah we last saw in the 80s - I suspect we've all changed since then. Certainly we can discount the audio spinoffs etc, as they're not canon (queue argument).
What RTD did throughout his tenure was to take things which, really, were never loked into or thought about too hard in the classic series, ie the effect on a person if this whole adventure had really happened. Great as the classic series is, it's characters were largely one-dimensional and unreal, who had no trouble disappearing with the Dr and leaving their loved ones behind, and who we were happy to suppose simply picked up their lives post - TARDIS. This simply would not be the case in reality, and stories like School Reunion are welcoming and refreshing takes on what happens when real people are put into these unreal situations.
However, this thread is about Girl in the Fireplace, and yes, definitely one of the best of NuWho (and all Who), beautifully written and acted, and with Moffat's trademark surreality and offbeatness (whichis probably not a word?!) The only thing that jarred in context of the series was how the Dr fell so quickly for Reinette when he was supposedly so infatuated with Rose at the time - but viewed as a seperate entity on it's own, it's pretty much a masterpiece, and raises the question of why so many posters here seem to lament the 2nd series, when it had highs such as this.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“How many times do you have to be told: that's only your opinion, and others disagree.
Not in a few months they don't, and that's how long before School Reunion the last series of Sarah Jane audios was. You might be happy to dismiss that, but I am not.”
“How many times do you have to be told: that's only your opinion, and others disagree.
Not in a few months they don't, and that's how long before School Reunion the last series of Sarah Jane audios was. You might be happy to dismiss that, but I am not.”
Then it should be quite obvious to you by now that the tv show trumps the audios, and therefore the audios are not and cannot be considered canon - just because you and a few hundred others bought them, and thought they were doesn't mean they were.
You will probably be disappointed with Jo Grant's appearance in SJA, as they will ignore the audios too - but then you'll blame RTD, where the real reason is a little closer to home.
Originally Posted by Salford_Who:
“Then it should be quite obvious to you by now that the tv show trumps the audios, and therefore the audios are not and cannot be considered canon - just because you and a few hundred others bought them, and thought they were doesn't mean they were.
You will probably be disappointed with Jo Grant's appearance in SJA, as they will ignore the audios too - but then you'll blame RTD, where the real reason is a little closer to home.”
“Then it should be quite obvious to you by now that the tv show trumps the audios, and therefore the audios are not and cannot be considered canon - just because you and a few hundred others bought them, and thought they were doesn't mean they were.
You will probably be disappointed with Jo Grant's appearance in SJA, as they will ignore the audios too - but then you'll blame RTD, where the real reason is a little closer to home.”
Well said and totally true!!
Originally Posted by Salford_Who:
“Then it should be quite obvious to you by now that the tv show trumps the audios, and therefore the audios are not and cannot be considered canon - just because you and a few hundred others bought them, and thought they were doesn't mean they were.”
“Then it should be quite obvious to you by now that the tv show trumps the audios, and therefore the audios are not and cannot be considered canon - just because you and a few hundred others bought them, and thought they were doesn't mean they were.”
And just because you don't think they are, doesn't mean you're right. There is no official canon.
Quote:
“You will probably be disappointed with Jo Grant's appearance in SJA, as they will ignore the audios too - but then you'll blame RTD, where the real reason is a little closer to home.”
“You will probably be disappointed with Jo Grant's appearance in SJA, as they will ignore the audios too - but then you'll blame RTD, where the real reason is a little closer to home.”
Nope, if that happens it will indeed be the fault of RTD, because he has no respect for either the fans who bought the other stories or the writers who created them. Which is what I'd expect from an egotist like him. It still won't validate your opinion.
My favourite story.
There are some other very good stories, but for me there's something special about this one.
There are some other very good stories, but for me there's something special about this one.
A great episode, especially the bit with 10 jumping through the mirror on the white horse.
I can't help think there is something sinister is afoot with Moffat in which he has The Doctor grooming little girls. lol j/k
I can't help think there is something sinister is afoot with Moffat in which he has The Doctor grooming little girls. lol j/k
Originally Posted by tysonstorm:
“A great episode, especially the bit with 10 jumping through the mirror on the white horse.
I can't help think there is something sinister is afoot with Moffat in which he has The Doctor grooming little girls. lol j/k”
“A great episode, especially the bit with 10 jumping through the mirror on the white horse.
I can't help think there is something sinister is afoot with Moffat in which he has The Doctor grooming little girls. lol j/k
”
You are the Dream Lord and I claim my five Altairian dollars.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“And just because you don't think they are, doesn't mean you're right. There is no official canon.
Nope, if that happens it will indeed be the fault of RTD, because he has no respect for either the fans who bought the other stories or the writers who created them. Which is what I'd expect from an egotist like him. It still won't validate your opinion.”
“And just because you don't think they are, doesn't mean you're right. There is no official canon.
Nope, if that happens it will indeed be the fault of RTD, because he has no respect for either the fans who bought the other stories or the writers who created them. Which is what I'd expect from an egotist like him. It still won't validate your opinion.”
Thank you, that's the nub of it. There is no official canon, and there can't be in a show like Doctor Who, as it gets in the way of good story-telling - which is what RTD wanted to do with Sarah Jane (and succeeded).
As entertaining as the audiobooks can be, they're just stories. Simple as. Tales which may or may not fit into some strange 'linear' Doctor Who timeline which somehow might exist. Tales with a beginning, middle and an end, written by talented story-tellers albeit knowing fully well that only devoted fans will ever hear their work.
The word 'canon' is used by said fans who want to reassure themselves that what they just listened to / watched had some degree of purpose other than to entertain them - like its part of some sort of gospel. Its quite sad really.
However, if there must be a 'canon', the TV show must lead the way - but even that unashamedly likes to criss-cross its own continuity, and with good enough reason.
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