You cannot expect viewers to have listened to Big Finish Audios to understand how a character has changed in 30 years. You have to pick a new entry point.
The Girl in the Fireplace
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Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“How many times do you have to be told: that's only your opinion, and others disagree.
Not in a few months they don't, and that's how long before School Reunion the last series of Sarah Jane audios was. You might be happy to dismiss that, but I am not.”
“How many times do you have to be told: that's only your opinion, and others disagree.
Not in a few months they don't, and that's how long before School Reunion the last series of Sarah Jane audios was. You might be happy to dismiss that, but I am not.”
I see you're making more friends!
Originally Posted by BibaNova:
“I do wonder how he (Moffat) came up with this idea. Was it aliens stalking a famous person, then pick a historical figure to base it around. Or, he liked the idea of a story based on Madame de Pompadour?”
“I do wonder how he (Moffat) came up with this idea. Was it aliens stalking a famous person, then pick a historical figure to base it around. Or, he liked the idea of a story based on Madame de Pompadour?”
I've always wondered whether the story was a metaphor or foreshadow for the Doomsday series finale.
Clockwork robots using people for parts, coming through holes in space-time to get more. Notice also in its conclusion how the Doc thinks he's trapped and separated from Rose and the Tardis when the ship's time windows close.
Originally Posted by Eaglestriker:
“As entertaining as the audiobooks can be, they're just stories. Simple as. Tales which may or may not fit into some strange 'linear' Doctor Who timeline which somehow might exist. Tales with a beginning, middle and an end, written by talented story-tellers albeit knowing fully well that only devoted fans will ever hear their work.
The word 'canon' is used by said fans who want to reassure themselves that what they just listened to / watched had some degree of purpose other than to entertain them - like its part of some sort of gospel. Its quite sad really.
However, if there must be a 'canon', the TV show must lead the way - but even that unashamedly likes to criss-cross its own continuity, and with good enough reason.”
“As entertaining as the audiobooks can be, they're just stories. Simple as. Tales which may or may not fit into some strange 'linear' Doctor Who timeline which somehow might exist. Tales with a beginning, middle and an end, written by talented story-tellers albeit knowing fully well that only devoted fans will ever hear their work.
The word 'canon' is used by said fans who want to reassure themselves that what they just listened to / watched had some degree of purpose other than to entertain them - like its part of some sort of gospel. Its quite sad really.
However, if there must be a 'canon', the TV show must lead the way - but even that unashamedly likes to criss-cross its own continuity, and with good enough reason.”
They're not 'audiobooks'. An audiobook is just a book being read aloud, that is not the same thing as a full cast audio play. And I don't appreciate being called 'sad', simply because I actually care about this stuff.
Originally Posted by johnnysaucepn:
“You cannot expect viewers to have listened to Big Finish Audios to understand how a character has changed in 30 years. You have to pick a new entry point.”
“You cannot expect viewers to have listened to Big Finish Audios to understand how a character has changed in 30 years. You have to pick a new entry point.”
You still don't have to ignore it, or change the characters motivation beyond recognition. A decent writer could make the character consistent with all previous appearances without needing to reference any of them directly. Davies chose not to because he was arrogant enough to believe his personal vision was more important than previous writers' work.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“They're not 'audiobooks'. An audiobook is just a book being read aloud, that is not the same thing as a full cast audio play. And I don't appreciate being called 'sad', simply because I actually care about this stuff.
You still don't have to ignore it, or change the characters motivation beyond recognition. A decent writer could make the character consistent with all previous appearances without needing to reference any of them directly. Davies chose not to because he was arrogant enough to believe his personal vision was more important than previous writers' work.”
“They're not 'audiobooks'. An audiobook is just a book being read aloud, that is not the same thing as a full cast audio play. And I don't appreciate being called 'sad', simply because I actually care about this stuff.
You still don't have to ignore it, or change the characters motivation beyond recognition. A decent writer could make the character consistent with all previous appearances without needing to reference any of them directly. Davies chose not to because he was arrogant enough to believe his personal vision was more important than previous writers' work.”
Nonsense. RTD had no reason to consult the audiobooks in relation to Sarah's character, in the same way as he wouldn't consult the Peter Cushing Daleks film if he were to bring back Ian Chesterton. RTD was in charge of the TV show, and as long as there was reasonable consistency with previous TV appearances, that's fine, and there was. And as he was dealing with largely a new Dr Who audience, even if there was minor tweaking with the character in order to get a good story across, that too would be fine.
I cannot help but hope that Jo's SJA appearance contradicts the Big Finish plays. Just to see the rants from this tingramretro person. That and Moffat adding some more emotion and human stories (no way this sad (yes sad) muppett could relate) to the next series would make my day.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“They're not 'audiobooks'. An audiobook is just a book being read aloud, that is not the same thing as a full cast audio play. And I don't appreciate being called 'sad', simply because I actually care about this stuff.
You still don't have to ignore it, or change the characters motivation beyond recognition. A decent writer could make the character consistent with all previous appearances without needing to reference any of them directly. Davies chose not to because he was arrogant enough to believe his personal vision was more important than previous writers' work.”
“They're not 'audiobooks'. An audiobook is just a book being read aloud, that is not the same thing as a full cast audio play. And I don't appreciate being called 'sad', simply because I actually care about this stuff.
You still don't have to ignore it, or change the characters motivation beyond recognition. A decent writer could make the character consistent with all previous appearances without needing to reference any of them directly. Davies chose not to because he was arrogant enough to believe his personal vision was more important than previous writers' work.”
Its okay caring about the 'full cast audio plays' but there is a limit, Ting. There's 'caring' and there is 'worshipping'. At least 'caring' allows room for healthy doses of both affection and mockery towards whatever it is that's being cared about, be it a 'full-cast audio play' or a person.
'Worshipping' just guarantees animosity towards anything which dares take a different vision or opinion to that 'full-cast audio play' or person. Its like religion, only - in this instance - even more pointless.
Davies isn't arrogant. He just had the vision to know that if you take an ordinary human-being, throw him or her into a new life full of planets, stars, mystical wonders, aliens and galactic battles, then drop that person on Earth back into an everyday routine, it would haunt you...in a good way.
I haven't heard these Sarah Jane audio plays, but is it really contradicted? Its only after she bumps into the Doc again in the school where she begins to get emotional about it, as she's suddenly got the chance to ask questions she thought she would never have the opportunity to ask. She was behaving like any human would after suddenly being confronted with her past.
Originally Posted by JohnBoy Walton:
“I cannot help but hope that Jo's SJA appearance contradicts the Big Finish plays. Just to see the rants from this tingramretro person. That and Moffat adding some more emotion and human stories (no way this sad (yes sad) muppett could relate) to the next series would make my day.”
“I cannot help but hope that Jo's SJA appearance contradicts the Big Finish plays. Just to see the rants from this tingramretro person. That and Moffat adding some more emotion and human stories (no way this sad (yes sad) muppett could relate) to the next series would make my day.”
I'm sure RTD won't allude to the audiobooks at all in relation to Jo Grant, and neither should he. And I hope there will indeed be much emotion from both of them as this will be their FIRST meeting in 35-plus years. Plus, I hope we do get a bit more human emotion from the next season of Who, as this was largely lacking (with notable exceptions) throughout the last series. But of course, some people will absolutely loathe that...!!
Originally Posted by smithers3162:
“I'm sure RTD won't allude to the audiobooks at all in relation to Jo Grant, and neither should he. And I hope there will indeed be much emotion from both of them as this will be their FIRST meeting in 35-plus years. Plus, I hope we do get a bit more human emotion from the next season of Who, as this was largely lacking (with notable exceptions) throughout the last series. But of course, some people will absolutely loathe that...!!”
“I'm sure RTD won't allude to the audiobooks at all in relation to Jo Grant, and neither should he. And I hope there will indeed be much emotion from both of them as this will be their FIRST meeting in 35-plus years. Plus, I hope we do get a bit more human emotion from the next season of Who, as this was largely lacking (with notable exceptions) throughout the last series. But of course, some people will absolutely loathe that...!!”
Which makes it even sweeter
Originally Posted by Galifrey:
“What is to say the audioplays happen after the school reunion?”
“What is to say the audioplays happen after the school reunion?”
better ask the Audioplay-master General (Tingramento) that one, though of course the answer is immaterial as they are not canon!
There is a very nice moment in TGITFP when The Doctor nonchalantly strums a harp (the often used and clichéd sound for dreaming/fantasising ) and at that second Madame Pompadour appears. Always brings a smile to my face that.
Originally Posted by Galifrey:
“What is to say the audioplays happen after the school reunion?”
“What is to say the audioplays happen after the school reunion?”
Because School Reunion leads straight into SJA. Which would ruin it, especially the part about him leaving K9 for her.
And as Smithers says, probably best ask the expert. I am probably wrong.
Originally Posted by CAMERA OBSCURA:
“There is a very nice moment in TGITFP when The Doctor nonchalantly strums a harp (the often used and clichéd sound for dreaming/fantasising ) and at that second Madame Pompadour appears. Always brings a smile to my face that.”
“There is a very nice moment in TGITFP when The Doctor nonchalantly strums a harp (the often used and clichéd sound for dreaming/fantasising ) and at that second Madame Pompadour appears. Always brings a smile to my face that.”
Oooh yes, I love that bit.
Originally Posted by JohnBoy Walton:
“Because School Reunion leads straight into SJA. Which would ruin it, especially the part about him leaving K9 for her.
And as Smithers says, probably best ask the expert. I am probably wrong.”
“Because School Reunion leads straight into SJA. Which would ruin it, especially the part about him leaving K9 for her.
And as Smithers says, probably best ask the expert. I am probably wrong.”
Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
Originally Posted by smithers3162:
“I'm sure RTD won't allude to the audiobooks at all in relation to Jo Grant, and neither should he. And I hope there will indeed be much emotion from both of them as this will be their FIRST meeting in 35-plus years. Plus, I hope we do get a bit more human emotion from the next season of Who, as this was largely lacking (with notable exceptions) throughout the last series. But of course, some people will absolutely loathe that...!!”
“I'm sure RTD won't allude to the audiobooks at all in relation to Jo Grant, and neither should he. And I hope there will indeed be much emotion from both of them as this will be their FIRST meeting in 35-plus years. Plus, I hope we do get a bit more human emotion from the next season of Who, as this was largely lacking (with notable exceptions) throughout the last series. But of course, some people will absolutely loathe that...!!”
Do many fans listen to the audio-wotsits or read the books? I don't (except for the radio plays) and I count myself a fan, so if any TV programme referred to events portrayed in them I wouldn't know what was going on, so it wouldn't be fair.
You may be right about the human emotion being lacking from series 5 thing. Something was lacking, definitely.
Watching the repeats of series 2 I was struck by how immediately I got involved with the characters and in the story. Even minor characters like the maid in Tooth and Claw. Contrast with the weeping WAAF in Victory of the daleks, who just felt stuck in for no good reason.
TGitF was the story that got me back into New Who, so I will always love it. This time, though, I noticed how many themes were recycled by Moff in series 5, the child growing up while the Doctor was away, the imaginary friend etc.
(I'm a Moffat fan, btw, before anyone accuses me of being anti-SM)
Completely off topic - Sophie Myles is now in Spooks! After being in DW and Moonlight! How lucky is that woman?
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“Do many fans listen to the audio-wotsits or read the books? I don't (except for the radio plays) and I count myself a fan, so if any TV programme referred to events portrayed in them I wouldn't know what was going on, so it wouldn't be fair.
You may be right about the human emotion being lacking from series 5 thing. Something was lacking, definitely.
Watching the repeats of series 2 I was struck by how immediately I got involved with the characters and in the story. Even minor characters like the maid in Tooth and Claw. Contrast with the weeping WAAF in Victory of the daleks, who just felt stuck in for no good reason.
TGitF was the story that got me back into New Who, so I will always love it. This time, though, I noticed how many themes were recycled by Moff in series 5, the child growing up while the Doctor was away, the imaginary friend etc.
(I'm a Moffat fan, btw, before anyone accuses me of being anti-SM)
Completely off topic - Sophie Myles is now in Spooks! After being in DW and Moonlight! How lucky is that woman?”
“Do many fans listen to the audio-wotsits or read the books? I don't (except for the radio plays) and I count myself a fan, so if any TV programme referred to events portrayed in them I wouldn't know what was going on, so it wouldn't be fair.
You may be right about the human emotion being lacking from series 5 thing. Something was lacking, definitely.
Watching the repeats of series 2 I was struck by how immediately I got involved with the characters and in the story. Even minor characters like the maid in Tooth and Claw. Contrast with the weeping WAAF in Victory of the daleks, who just felt stuck in for no good reason.
TGitF was the story that got me back into New Who, so I will always love it. This time, though, I noticed how many themes were recycled by Moff in series 5, the child growing up while the Doctor was away, the imaginary friend etc.
(I'm a Moffat fan, btw, before anyone accuses me of being anti-SM)
Completely off topic - Sophie Myles is now in Spooks! After being in DW and Moonlight! How lucky is that woman?”
Pretty much agree with all of that. Very nicely put for me. I often didn't care if people lived or died in series 5 but I always had before (I wept at Adric!). But I still enjoyed it.
Originally Posted by JohnBoy Walton:
“Pretty much agree with all of that. Very nicely put for me. I often didn't care if people lived or died in series 5 but I always had before (I wept at Adric!). But I still enjoyed it.”
“Pretty much agree with all of that. Very nicely put for me. I often didn't care if people lived or died in series 5 but I always had before (I wept at Adric!). But I still enjoyed it.”
I was agreeing with you until you said you wept at Adric.
The real question is
Did you cheer when Amy got shot by Rory?
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“Do many fans listen to the audio-wotsits or read the books? I don't (except for the radio plays) and I count myself a fan, so if any TV programme referred to events portrayed in them I wouldn't know what was going on, so it wouldn't be fair.
You may be right about the human emotion being lacking from series 5 thing. Something was lacking, definitely.
Watching the repeats of series 2 I was struck by how immediately I got involved with the characters and in the story. Even minor characters like the maid in Tooth and Claw. Contrast with the weeping WAAF in Victory of the daleks, who just felt stuck in for no good reason.
TGitF was the story that got me back into New Who, so I will always love it. This time, though, I noticed how many themes were recycled by Moff in series 5, the child growing up while the Doctor was away, the imaginary friend etc.
(I'm a Moffat fan, btw, before anyone accuses me of being anti-SM)
Completely off topic - Sophie Myles is now in Spooks! After being in DW and Moonlight! How lucky is that woman?”
“Do many fans listen to the audio-wotsits or read the books? I don't (except for the radio plays) and I count myself a fan, so if any TV programme referred to events portrayed in them I wouldn't know what was going on, so it wouldn't be fair.
You may be right about the human emotion being lacking from series 5 thing. Something was lacking, definitely.
Watching the repeats of series 2 I was struck by how immediately I got involved with the characters and in the story. Even minor characters like the maid in Tooth and Claw. Contrast with the weeping WAAF in Victory of the daleks, who just felt stuck in for no good reason.
TGitF was the story that got me back into New Who, so I will always love it. This time, though, I noticed how many themes were recycled by Moff in series 5, the child growing up while the Doctor was away, the imaginary friend etc.
(I'm a Moffat fan, btw, before anyone accuses me of being anti-SM)
Completely off topic - Sophie Myles is now in Spooks! After being in DW and Moonlight! How lucky is that woman?”
Yep, pretty darn perfect post that one, and can only agree with all you say
Originally Posted by JohnBoy Walton:
“Pretty much agree with all of that. Very nicely put for me. I often didn't care if people lived or died in series 5 but I always had before (I wept at Adric!). But I still enjoyed it.”
“Pretty much agree with all of that. Very nicely put for me. I often didn't care if people lived or died in series 5 but I always had before (I wept at Adric!). But I still enjoyed it.”
I did care when Rory died (both times). I love Rory. But the only episode that made me feel really emotionally involved was Vincent.
Originally Posted by Salford_Who:
“I was agreeing with you until you said you wept at Adric.
The real question is
Did you cheer when Amy got shot by Rory?”
“I was agreeing with you until you said you wept at Adric.
The real question is
Did you cheer when Amy got shot by Rory?”
OK, you got me on that one. But to be honest it's because I felt so sorry for Rory. Oh that was sad. Amy? Meh.
I know, I am weird but I loved Adric! Nutter!
Originally Posted by Granny McSmith:
“I did care when Rory died (both times). I love Rory. But the only episode that made me feel really emotionally involved was Vincent.”
“I did care when Rory died (both times). I love Rory. But the only episode that made me feel really emotionally involved was Vincent.”
I don't understand how anyone couldn't love Rory. Part of my problem is that I have (deliberately) only watched series 5 once so I can really enjoy the box set.
Originally Posted by JohnBoy Walton:
“I cannot help but hope that Jo's SJA appearance contradicts the Big Finish plays. Just to see the rants from this tingramretro person. That and Moffat adding some more emotion and human stories (no way this sad (yes sad) muppett could relate) to the next series would make my day.”
“I cannot help but hope that Jo's SJA appearance contradicts the Big Finish plays. Just to see the rants from this tingramretro person. That and Moffat adding some more emotion and human stories (no way this sad (yes sad) muppett could relate) to the next series would make my day.”
Resort to personal insults again and I'm pressing 'report'.
Originally Posted by tingramretro:
“Resort to personal insults again and I'm pressing 'report'.”
“Resort to personal insults again and I'm pressing 'report'.”
Consider myself told. You do have an appalling attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you though. But don't threaten me, especially not with something as trivial as pressing report. How would I ever cope?
I won't get personal again but why not just put me on ignore?
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