Yes you do need a strong core. I can kick up to face height but can't keep my leg there.



Which celebs do you think have mastered the art of 'spotting' when they turn? I think that Pamela and Kara seem to be able to do it, but I don't that that any of the males including Matt can do it yet?

I suspect it was the way she was resting her left hand on his shoulder. It was more of 'a clutch' than a rest and her index finger was rigid. Bit of a give away. Nerves I think She's good though!

I agree. I wonder of the pros teach them about spotting and head whipping, or is it too soon? I would imagine their individual teaching styles vary quite a bit.

Thanks to those who have explained it. I am surprised though because Len usually picks up on this and will say "you were clinging to him" but it is odd about Craig just pointing a finger out.

I do think it is nerves when female celebs hold on for dear life in a ballroom dance.

Thanks for the info on the salsas. Very useful to someone like me who has spent about 1 hr learning salsa. The dance school I attend has just started AT medal classes. I wondered what you (or anyone else) thought about how well the medal system would work for AT, if you're familiar with it? It works reasonably well for ballroom/latin, I think although, even there, my ability to follow a lead in ballroom has deteriorated through doing set routines. But I wasn't sure about applying it to AT where the emphasis is on walking correctly/balance at first rather than doing fixed routines..


Jared and Tina's foxtrot didn't look very international style to me. It wasn't just the percentage of time spent out of hold (which definitely made it AS ish), but also the dancing in hold itself. Was the dancing in hold closer to American style technique wise, or was the dancing in hold just not a very good example of an international style ballroom? Or maybe it was correct International style but I wasn't seeing it correctly. (Sorry, that's badly worded. I'm not saying that American style is inferior, but am assuming Jared and Tina were supposed to be dancing International rather than American and yet it didn't look much like the other routines in style.)
Last edited by Vivacious Lady : 12-10-2010 at 08:34

Re: AT - I can't imagine how they will do this VL AT does not follow set routines at all - ever! You learn the basics and how to 'walk' and then you improvise. It is constantly evolving too and there are even different styles of tango. I can't think how someone would able to pin it all down to a series that fit a medal scheme.

There are AT competitions round the world but we never describe dancers (in class) as anything other than Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, and in the tango world they are simply known by their partner names. Is the person intending to do this medal thing English?

Jared and Tina: I have to be completely honest and admit I don't even remember it. I find them both so forgettable to watch I may even have left the room at that stage!

What I have noticed is that the pros are adapting every dance for their celeb on the basis of their ability, sometimes to the detriment of the dance, and to an extent where it's hard to find any classic steps in their routines at all.

The only dance they ever stay, more or less true, to is the waltz!

LOL But they are cute! (Although Tina's a bit old for cute).
I agree about the adapting of the dance to suit the celeb. Shame.

I thought that you might have that view of AT medals. That's part the reason why I haven't taken up the classes (the other more practical reason being the timing). I don't know who will be teaching it (whether they are specialists). It is part of the ISTD club dance faculty I think.

VL - I did AT bronze medals when I was in Australia. I don't know if it works the same here, but the medal I did was called 'Street Latin' and it encompassed merengue, argentine tango and salsa for bronze. I think silver added Lindy Hop. Can't remember what would be at gold level. It's ok if you wanted to have something to work for but for me I found it a bit boring. With those kinds of dances, I'd much rather improvise.

VL I know someone who does AT and she chose it because it is just the one dance with no real rules. I understand it is a great social dance.
she had done ballroom and Latin medals but gave up because she didnt want to be restricted in that way.

Couldnt you find an AT class where they just do it not bothering with medals?

cmyrugirl - thanks for the info and also for confirming other views.

ej, yes there are lots of AT classes in London. In fact I still get regular emails from one I went to ages ago which takes the more traditional approach. Just haven't got round to doing anything about it.

I think the idea of it is good in that it gives some sort of structure and something to work towards, but for me, the fun just got sucked out of it.

My teacher at the time, was a salsa specialist, and I often wondered if he felt quite stifled by it because when we started prepping for silver, I told him I didn't want to do it as I hated Lindy Hop and he straight away promised me he would teach me more salsa stuff that was off the curriculum and we ended up trying out lots of tricks. It was really great fun.

He and another teacher who was an AT specialist didn't last long at the school and I think it was due to lack of freedom they got in the 'street latin' as the school was very much focused on latin/ballroom and the whole medal system. They weren't strong teachers in the traditional dances, but outdanced all of them when it came to salsa, merengue, AT, mambo etc so it was a shame to lose them.

It really comes down to what you want to get out if it. If you're a person who likes structure then it would probably be ideal.

I'm doing my bronze in AT and my 1st Star Ballroom at the end of the month and I have to say it's nice to have a total change in the AT. My teacher says that technique for AT isn't fully defined in terms of heels and toes etc, and what the examiner will be looking for is more the feel of the dance and the "creeping" action instead of standard ballroom walks. The hardest thing is keeping your elbows in to yourself after an hour of ballroom hold!

I had the same problem with my 'hold'. My elbows instinctively go up. It exasperated my first AT teacher - a very bad tempered Argentinian and he took to slapping my right elbow on many an occasion, in mid dance. I was also so used to dancing set variations that I was always two steps ahead 'anticipating' which you cannot do in AT. The Leader leads.

In the end he just blindfolded me, or made me dance with my eyes shut. It worked!

The whole medal thing is so opposite too the way tango is taught. I think it had been 'added' on in dance school simply because it has become so popular and schools want to make sure they can teach it - alongside everything else.

Problem is that you can't teach tango like that. London and Scotland have the strongest 'tango' hubs but there are now hoards of people 'teaching tango' who tend to miss the point of it.

Latin specialists tend to have a better understanding of it. I do feel for your teacher. Street Latin is such fun. In Cuba the kids dance raggaeton when they are not doing salsa, and it is amazing to watch. I think real Latin and ISTD ballroom are two different things and melding to two types of teaching and teachers together is a mistake. It's never going to work.

Worlds and poles apart!

Thanks flugella. Useful to get an alternative view. So it seems the UK version is limited to At only (can see cymrugirl's problem in doing other dances that are of less interest) and does concentrate on some of the basics which sounds more reassuring.

EDIT: Although I notice that sofakat has just posted and has some reservations. I guess the first thing for me would be to go back to doing some AT lessons and see if i am interested before even thinking about medals.

If you ever go make sure you are being taught by an Argentinian - that's the best advice I can give you. The best beginners teacher is Pablo Alonso and the best couple are Leandro Palou & Romina Godoy. In amongst them are a bunch of truly awful teachers, claiming that a trip to Buenos Aires has made them experts. Take with large pinch of salt! Some of them are absolutely barking!

sofakat, thanks. Pablo Alonso teaches quite close to where I live, and so that's interesting.

EDIT maybe not, just realised the lessons are not current. Still useful to have some pointers.

Yay! Excellent.

He has some odd idiosyncrasies, but he knows tango like no one else (born in BA) and will avoid you picking up awful habits! All the other teachers have been to Pablo, but they will never admit to it.

He does have a habit of translating the lyrics to old Argentinian songs in your ear as you dance around the floor in private classes with him. The lyrics are barmy...

His English is frequently bizarre, but he has a very good heart.

He's very disciplined, very particular about how you learn and can be picky as hell, but the grounding he gives you is superb.

Funny little man, but a great, great teacher.

His own dance studio is in Bow, but he has set up a series over at Canary Wharf, E14 at a fantastic venue. He moves around every now and then. Add yourself to his email list and he'll keep you up to date. He does great weekend workshops too.

Thanks, yes it was Canary Wharf (and possibly Greenwich) which interested me.

Have PM'd you with his latest email about classes, in case you feel tempted. They mention both venues. I used to live in Docklands and am furious he finally made it down there after I'd moved to sodding Sussex!

Went to one of his Greenwich workshops and he made me teach instead of dance! And I had to do the man's lead. Grrrrr! Little sod!

Sof x

Sofakat, thanks for explaining the different styles used for Pamela and Scott's salsas! Without meaning to, I think you've neatly told me why I was slightly underwhelmed by Scott's- I'm much more used to rueda/ Cuban (is is Cuban that's linked to rueda?) styles salsa and prefer that to LA style, which I've much less experience with. From the sound of it, I ended up learning salsa in a similar way to how you're saying AT is learnt, purely because I started doing it in France and between unfamiliar step names, large groups of people, noisy rooms and my own less-than-brilliant grasp of French for the first couple of months, following and imitating became the order of the day rather than listening to technical instructions. I didn't even know until a year after I'd left France that I'd been doing rueda/ Cuban style salsa. I loved it though, social dancing with people who are better than you is a brilliant way of learning, and that's pretty much all I did once the more advanced dancers in the class twigged that I was an odd sort of beginner and would probably keep up with them even if I hadn't a clue what was going on. As a result though, my grasp of technique is vague to say the least. I know what things look like or ought to look like if someone's doing the same style I did, but I wouldn't be able to start describing it. I tend to give up on Strictly salsas because I can never quite figure out what they're trying to achieve and i hardly recognise any of the steps.

In terms of spotting, it wouldn't surprise me if the pros didn't bother teaching their celebs straight off, unless the celeb already had a basic grasp of it. I think it was Tina I noticed on Saturday, who did multiple spins in her foxtrot without spotting. I always think it looks awkward when people don't spot (especially if they're holding their head at a slight angle, as Tina was) but some people do find it difficult to pick up and I suppose it's not absolutely necessary to do it. My Latin teacher told our novice class last year not to bother if we didn't know how, though I think we were expected to in the inter/ advanced class (the teachers never said so explicitly, but I wouldn't want to do some of their routines without spotting, put it that way!).

I think that's a brilliant way to learn franglemand. Above all, dancing should be a joyful thing and exhilarating - and salsa is, isn't it? I think rueda is fantastic (yes, it is Cuban) because you dance with a group in a circle and get to change partners continuously in an increasingly complex series of moves. It frees you somehow If you can copy you can learn. That is how I learn. I hate 'breaking down' steps and sucking the energy out of a move, altho' I know some people need to see the component moves.

I do think people should be shown how to 'spot' asap. Controlling your own axis and balance is so crucial in dance, and realising that your head is the heaviest part of your body - and its position essential to balance - it helps you understand how to control movement, speed and rotation - without going arse over tit!

Bumping this thread up for someone

Blimey, how'd I miss this thread?


I'm familiar with the system. I did a review of the DVIDA syllabus here.

Generally, I'm not a fan of it, because I believe it focusses too much on steps and not enough on posture, connection and musicality.

But I've not gone through it myself, so that's just an outsider's view.


Yes - AT should never be about fixed routines. Each step is led and followed on a continuous basis.