........ok maybe not the most appealing thread title but difficult to think of something concise.

I thought that with the start of a new series it might be nice to have a thread discussing the technical aspects of the strictly dances. And also to post other points of interest about the competitive dance world.

Everyone is welcome to post, be they Joanna Leunis/Michael Malitowski standard or Fiona Phillips/Craig Kelly level). Non dancers also welcome to ask technical questions but I'm hoping that some professional dancers might contribute (and declare themselves first) otherwise this discussion thread might be going nowhere, since I won't be able to answer questions!

So if you sleep with the ISTD book close to your heart, or practice Ochos whilst waiting for the 7:30 to Paddington and hope noone will notice, please think about posting here.

So to start off, I would like to raise a question about the foxtrot. Do people think it is fairly represented on strictly and should it be the second ballroom dance that the celebs do? It is my favourite dance but my answer would be 'no' to both questions but I don't know what can be done. It is a very technical dance, and most beginners don't learn it. And when they do they have to spend hours practicing the feather and three steps (well I did anyway ) which would make boring viewing on their own. I suspect that most non-dancers watching strictly think it is a boring dance where two glum people just walk around the room. At the only comp I've ever been to the most exciting part of the evening was when everyone lined up at either end of the floor for the foxtrot, the music started and they all started off on their feather steps.

Maybe the pros should just give up and do what Anton did with Gillian Taylforth, where he danced something which was nothing like a foxtrot since she couldn't walk backwards (i.e. no feather or three step). The judges didn't seem to mind. Any views?

Hello VL what a wonderful idea for a thread.

The other day, I tried to find a thread - can't remember its exact title - something like Dance Teachers' something or other - and I was trying to find it to look back on some advice someone gave me on there aeons ago....on that thread it was full of good advice re things like this....so I am very happy to see the idea of this thread!

thank you for starting it. Although I am still learning so I cannot be any kind of authority on technical points! but will gratefully read and listen to the advice of people who do know what they are talking about, to help with and enhance my own experience of learning to dance, and of watching others.

Thanks again - lovely thread!

PS btw the foxtrot is my own favourite ballroom dance as well, to actually do - and bizarrely, despite being a beginner, the one I do the best of all the ballroom dances!

Would particularly welcome any advice on doing much smoother heel turns in this dance - is the thing I mess up the most and if I mess it up, I seem to make it so "staccato". Advice please!

I don't do ballroom/ latin (so probably shouldn't be on this thread) but I do other dance forms.

On DWTS in week one when Jennifer Grey did the waltz she did a really good supported: what we would call a 'layout' in jazz terms.

http://dance.about.com/od/jazzterms/g/Jazz_Layout.htm


What do you call it in ballroom and how long do you think it would take a non dancer to learn to do that?

Thanks TQ. I would also like advice on heel turns. I find they degenerate as the dance progresses and also find it quite difficult going from the heel turn (SQQ) into the next slow (not very smooth at all). Also I find the contrabody movement very difficult especially in the three step. In fact I find everything difficult in the foxtrot (had to spend about 70% of effort on foxtrot for my silver exam 20% on waltz rise and fall/sway and the rest on quickstep/other aspects only to end up with the same mark for all three dances!).

I'm very glad to see this thread started, VL, although of course you're welcome to continue the dance discussion in OT, I for one don't mind at all!

I have very little dance experience at all, a term of classes and a few workshops. But I am hoping to compete at beginners team level on the uni circuit this year, so I'd be very grateful for any advice from those who have done so in the past.

kochspostulates everyone is welcome to post questions on any dance form. I'm sure there will be someone who can answer. Popping out to do some shopping now. Glad to see some interest though.

Edit: OMG! I've just looked at that jazz layout move. can't speak for others but it would take me for ever to learn. Not enough flexibility.
Last edited by Vivacious Lady : 09-10-2010 at 10:13

I know nothing whatso ever about ballroom and have only in the last few years discovered which is latin and which is ballroom but its been good to have a thread where I can ask "what is a flekerl " etc .,
So can I ask , and I am not being funny what is Sway of Back and did Craig make that up on the spot . Maybe I wronged him ,I thought he was being a pretentious git .

Me too VL, I start off so beautifully with the heel turn, but really drag it badly when I next have to do it. I need advice on how to maintain it and to be positioned properly to do the next heel turn.

Can understand the percentage allocation completely and sympathise with it! but once you get the foxtrot right, it's like a dream....just beautiful and it's the dance more than any other that gives me the most pleasure to do when I get it right, since it IS so difficult.

I'm no expert, but as I understand it 'swayback' is a posture problem where the pelvis is excessively tilted causing a hollow in the lower back. A lack of strength in the 'core' muscles is sometimes the problem.

Some people seem to be just made that way though, as I seem to recall one of the pro's from DWTS (Lacey) was told she had a swayback when she was on SYTYCD, and there's no way that girl doesn't have a solid core.

If you Google 'swayback' I'm sure you'll find a better explanation.

Thank you . I call it a hollow back , but there you go , I wronged the man !!

Thank you for starting this thread, Vivdiva! I didn't post on the BBC boards bu I always went back in there to check on the Dance Teachers' Thread and see what they had to say about the dance(r)s. I'm no expert but I'm another who dances Ballroom and Latin and has done for a few years now, though I still probably know more about ballet than ballroom in all honesty. I don't like heel turns either- I've not done as much ballroom as Latin and from doing ballet, modern and tap for years, I still have to counter my instinct to have my weight over my toes at all times.


Mystical, you're going to have such a fantastic time! I was a beginner and competed as such in my first year of uni (about, er, 6 years ago now), and absolutely loved it. Advice? Try to get on with your partner, even if (s)he irritates you/ doesn't like practising/ is insanely competitive. People who made good friends with their partners generally enjoyed the whole experience much more. Also in tune with that, really just try to have fun at the comps, look upon them as a dance show rather than a competition if you're not that competitive. If you are competitive, I'd say just try not to let that affect your partnership too much- I knew a few couples who loved dancing and competitions because they did really well, but who stopped dancing together after beginners' year because they just hated each other. Too many fallings out over who made a mistake or wasn't listening, or got distracted with their costume... Also your team captain will love you if she can keep track of where both of you are by just asking one. Ours used to ring round everyone on the morning of the competition to check we were coming and after a while learnt that if she left us til half an hour before the meeting time, she only needed ring one person out of our little friendship group because 3 of us always went together and we'd all have spoken to our partners that morning already.

If you want to know anything, feel free to ask! I'm not sure what sort of thing you want to know and honestly, I've already edited this message because it was clearly too long. I competed less after beginner year due to partner issues (mine was a few years above me and left Sheffield for Manchester at the end of my first year ), going abroad and then not having so much time in final year, but I did pretty much everything in first year and have competed in beginner/ novice/ intermediate/ non-beginner/ open rounds. I'm now back at London uni for an MA and am seriously considering going back to the uni circuit comps because I did have great fun doing them.

Thanks for starting a great thread, hope it is a long lasting one. I won't be contributing myself as I know diddly squat unless it is something you can google! But I will be lurking and hoping to pick up a few bits of knowledge.

I can contribute a link to a thread that was mentioned earlier (I think this is the right one anyway: Dance Teacher's discussion area

And a few others which may be interesting to others like me:
FAO Dancers. people who dance or teach dance
Confusion - any dance experts please help!
UK Dance Championships 2007
Basic Dance Questions
Features of Each Dance
Blackpool Dance Festival 2008
Let's talk about dance
Let's talk about dance- again
Latin Supremacy
Best Professional?
Competition info please
Professional's best dance
Height of Dancers- Advantage/Disadvantage?
Dancers- would you like to share your expertise?

Quite a random selection, but maybe some of them would provide interesting topics of discussion for this series.

Katie thanks for all the links it will take me quite a long time to go through them all but I will.

I think the advice given on here needs to be from professionals and video clips are useful I have used a lot from you tube in the past.

I am due to take Gold Bar ballroom early in November and will be looking for video help particularly with the quickstep.
The foxtrot is my favourite dance and I do it better than all the others for some reason, it is so smooth and musical I really adore it. The heel turns I dont have a problem with and the dragging of the heels I was once told is like skiing backwards (!)

Yay VL has started the thread. Another uni dancer here (well ex-student with no partner now) so I just go along to support my friends whilst they compete
I used to post on the BBC boards dance teachers thread. I've shortened my name on here as my BBC ID was too long!

Hmm foxtrot - I don't think they should dance foxtrot in week two. I would definitely consider it to be one of the hardest dances to learn. I didn't start learning slow foxtrot until I'd already been dancing for about 2 years (the first dance we learnt as beginners was the social foxtrot which is much easier). The proper foot movement is quite alien to someone who has only been dancing a few weeks. I certainly don't dance it correctly and my heel turns are appalling! I have a tendency to fall of my ankles anyway so I dread heel turns. Though I know you aren't supposed to tip backwards onto your heels but to keep knees and ankles together to turn I seriously struggle.

I'm not sure that I can think of any outstandingly good foxtrots on Strictly regardless of what the judges score! When I've seen them danced well they just seem to glide round the floor effortlessly but I don't think I would describe many from Strictly as doing that.

Yes, starting threads is a bit alien to me but I was desperate to talk about dance . I think I could have the swayback problem! This could be like one of those medical forums where I diagnose myself as having every problem (I was asked the other week why my knees were turning inwards on the jive).

Katie, thanks for finding those links. Please feel free to post any info you have. I can't see what went wrong with the Let's talk about dance thread. It just petered out.

BB I haven't seen a really exciting foxtrot either. I've seen some quite good ones but nothing that has made me think wow!

TQ, I think the problem was that I did slow foxtrot for the first time at silver (we missed out bronze 2). In retrospect it was probably the wrong thing to do since I had to put in hours of practice to get it up to standard, although it all worked out ok in the end.

EJ, agree the thread needs some professionals posting on it. Wysiwyg, kaycee et al, would appreciate your input.

(I am so jealous of all you who are dancing and competing at uni or have done. We had a ballroom dancing club when I was at uni but it was a bit out of fashion then and so I didn't join.)

Duplicate post,oops
Last edited by Dancing cake : 09-10-2010 at 13:10

I just popped in to say thanks very much for starting this thread VL - I am NOT a dancer so you won't find me posting technical dance points here ...... BUT I can't be the only non-dancer who watches a dance and then doesn't quite understand what the judges mean, or thinks "I thought that was a bit rubbish" without really understanding what it was about the dance that made me think that!

So thanks very much, on behalf of other non-dancers who want to understand more. I'm looking forward to reading this thread and learning!

( - no "thumbs up" smileys so this is the best I can do instead!)

Hi tangoqueen (oh it's foxtrot queen now)

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...light=teachers ?

Sorry Vivavious_Lady, I just realised that I accidentally thanked someone completely different fo starting this thread. Thank you anyway! I clearly wasn't concentrating before.

In terms of difficulty of dances, I always think it's hard to say because everyone's different. I tend to go in terms of the order I learnt them in, which sort of makes sense to me. If you learn through uni societies going straight into competitions 3 weeks after your first lesson, generally speaking for ballroom you do waltz and quickstep first. I would say that waltz is the easiest of all the dances, because it's timing is pretty straight forward, it's not too fast and there's not much acting involved in the performance. Quickstep makes sense as a beginners' dance if you're learning ordinarily, but I never know how to class it on Strictly because they make beginners do advanced steps right from the outset. The other three dances were grouped together when I learnt them, but I'd personally rank them Viennese Waltz (fast and tricker than you'd think, but fairly simple timing and not many steps), tango (very different to all the others in mood), foxtrot (most complicated footwork and IMO hardest to make look like a dance and not just walking around).

For Latin, cha cha cha and jive are usually the beginner dances, which I'd go along with though for me personally rumba was the easiest to pick up. I found the jive to be harder than the cha cha cha because the jive action wasn't at all intuitive to me. I've since discovered that there are various ways of teaching it and quite possibly if I'd had my current teacher when I was a beginner I'd have found it slightly less baffling, but I still think the "bounce" action is harder to settle in to than the hip movement for the cha cha cha and the rumba. In terms of timing I think it depends on the person (I found the basic jive step confusing because it ends 3/4 of the way through a 2 bar phrase. If you're not used to thinking in terms of bars, jive is probably easier because it doesn't matter so much (in social dancing at least) if you start on beat 3 instead of beat 1). I'd probably put rumba third because it requires more control and more confidence in your steps and your partner than the faster dances but the timing and technique are very similiar to the cha cha cha. Then samba and Paso Doble as joint hardest, depending on what particularly you're talking about. I'd say in terms of technique, samba is hardest but in terms of performance and having confidence in your routine, Paso is. It's harder to improvise a Paso if you go wrong, I think, because you have to hit certain highlights in the music, whereas for samba you could have a routine that lasts 8 bars and just keep repeating the same steps over and over again.

I'd say salsa is by far the easiest of the lot if we extend ballroom and Latin the same way that Strictly has. Rock and roll and swing are both pretty straight forward if you already know how to jive. No idea whatsoever about Argentine Tango, Lindyhop or Charleston!

franglemand, I spelt your name wrong the other day and so can't complain about you getting my name wrong.

I agree about the order of ballroom, although I might put tango slightly up the order, since it is more of a walking action. The more variable rhythm can be a problem to pick up though. I think the closeness of the hold, and sharpness of movements are a bit of a problem later on.

I do so agree about the difficulty of the chasse action in the jive and its lack of intuitiveness. Technically it is the dance I have the most problems with. Why do other people find it so easy? This is getting a real bugbear for me. I've had 4 different people try to explain it to me, to no avail. The big problem I have is remembering to land in neutral postion at the end of the chasse (is that the beat 3/1 thing you mention?). Eventually found a short video with Corky Ballas online which helped. That said, if not worrying too much about the technicalities it is quite easy to learn the steps and follow.

Samba is ok for me. Haven't tried Paso. I think I might have a big problem presenting myself although since dancing more latin it is getting better. I tend to learn using the join the dots technique. Get the technical details right (or to a reasonable level) and then, wow, a bit of hip action appears without even thinking about it.

Haven't even done latin arms and hands yet except a tiny bit about it in the rumba.

Oh and I do agree that rumba is easier than cha cha.

Thank you for this thread!

I have been dancing for over three years now, so above beginner level but by no means experienced! I am officially Tall so I find ballroom easier than Latin although I love it all

The jazz layout - the closest thing I can think is a develope, where you lift the knee and extend the leg slowly and gracefully ( in theory lol) although the amount of lean backwards is variable, I think. Not too difficult in ballroom as you are supported by partner, as long as you have flexible hamstrings

I agree that the foxtrot is the hardest ballroom dance to learn, I've been dancing it for about 18 months and have a love-hate relationship with it there are so many technical things to think about that I never feel like I have dances it well! Also as well as the technical side, it is the one dance where I think it will never be quite right unless you can feel it, and how it fits with the music. The only man I have dances with where it 'feels' like foxtrot should, is my teacher, who has been dancing since he was 8! I think you need to have strong musicality as well as steps and technical skills.

I don't think it is represented well on Strictly. They say it us the hardest dance, and then in the next breath say it is just walking about to music

As for Latin.... I picked up all the different rhythms ok, in fact I love love love the samba and also the jive action is ok for me. My main issue is just keeping the technique right at full speed, particularly in cha cha as I have rather long legs ad have to work that bit harder.

Having said that, I like a challenge

Honestly, I wish I knew how other people found jive to be easy. I eventually became comfortable with it through social dancing rock and roll in France for 6 months, but obviously that didn't help me at all with proper, neat technique or with arms. My current teacher started her most recent explanation with "most of you who have been taught by other people were probably started off by being told to dance or bounce down, into the floor. I completely disagree with that." Amazing seeing as that's *exactly* what I was told for 2.5 years. I like jive, I just wish I actually understood it better! I think I'd actually be better at samba than jive if I'd done it more often.

In terms of timing, I meant that jive (and quickstep, actually) initially confused me because the basic "back, replace, chasse, chassee" covers 6 beats rather than 4 or 8 (there being 4 beats in a bar for jive, cha cha cha and rumba tracks). Does that make sense? So, if someone counts you in they'll always say either "1, 2, 3, 4" or "5, 6, 7, 8," never "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6." I automatically think in terms of how beats are numbered, so in cha cha cha I will still generally think "(1) 2, 3, 4&1, 2, 3, 4&1..." rather than "2, 3, cha cha cha, 2, 3, cha cha cha." In jive, I couldn't do that because the rhythm doesn't fit neatly into one or two bars. To count that way you'd start off ok with "1, 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6" but you can't repeat those numbers because you've finished at beat 6, not 4 or 8. It means rather than repeating the rhythm "back, step, chasse and, chasse and" you'd have to keep changing the numbers. Does that make sense at all? I can't think how to explain it properly! I suspect it's because I learnt music at school (I play the flute) and when learning ballet/ modern/ jazz/ tap routines, we always counted routines that way. I still don't like starting on what I would think of as beat 5, even though ballroom teachers do it quite happily all the time.

I'd be genuinely curious to know how the contestants on Strictly feel about all the dances once they've finished. I'd love to know if any of them were comfortable with the dances or if they just learnt the routines and couldnt really go any further than that.

I know what you mean franglemand

I have a musical background as well, so things like finding the 1 beat for waltz or the 4&1 for cha cha is easy to me, so I get what you mean about the jive steps not fitting obviously into the bars of music.

It's surprising though how many people can't count music, even just finding count 1 in a basic waltz tune is impossible for some in my dance class. In class my teacher always counts us in, but even after a few years of this there are couples who go to a social dance and appear to be dancing to a different piece of music they don't seem to associate the teacher's counting with what they hear.
It does make me appreciate what the Strictly pros manage to achieve with celebs who have no musical background or natural rhythm.

Ooh haven't come across that. I'm not sure about trusting a partner to support me - would need to find a good one.


I had the same experience recently. Went to another teacher and they were saying to me, why are you going downwards? Er because I thought that was what I was taught. I think in my case I may have misunderstood the instruction.

I do find the jive a bit difficult to count. I think I could cope with counting 6 beats all the time even though that doesn't fit into the bar structure, but then something like the whip comes along and that introduces a pattern of 4 beats instead of 6. Samba is much tidier in it's phrasing.

Could I ask if anyone on here with a bit of know how would post their opinions on the technical abilities of the front runners? Pamela, Matt, Kara, Scott and Jimi?