[AnVit2a]

6941 just appeared on transponder 10847.00 V with EPG data for BBC 1...

BBC HD trailers atm.
So are we on air?

[GaseousClay]

Originally Posted by AnVit2a

BBC HD trailers atm.
So are we on air?

and carrying BBC one SD now and next data.

Edit: you already said that didn't you actually it's not full epg just now and next.

[Wayne Moule]

No DOG, yet.

[Bryan Spink]

"@naglerhd in-channel marketing opps will be limited on #bbc one hd - on the plus side, you can watch the end credits undisturbed"

From Danielle Nagler's twitter feed

Looks like good news

[grahamlthompson]

Short clip here

http://www.4shared.com/file/FjwdA_NW/BBCNEWS.html

[d'@ve]

Is recordable as normal on Freesat+ receivers with 'Other Channels' ability. One benefit over Sky+HD Add Channels facility.

[thecaretaker]

Yep, got it. Fantastic. PMT PID is 260 Not sure what VID and AID is for people who want to manually add it.

[Ray Cathode]

Originally Posted by thecaretaker

Yep, got it. Fantastic. PMT PID is 260 Not sure what VID and AID is for people who want to manually add it.

V 5400 & A 5402 PCR 5400 Tele 8191

[scoobiesnacks]

what is the picture quality like guys? is it 1920 lines? /Whats the bitrate like?

[fastest finger]

Originally Posted by Wayne Moule

No DOG, yet.

There won't be one

[GaseousClay]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnacks

what is the picture quality like guys? is it 1920 lines? /Whats the bitrate like?

The clip Graham posted in post #5 was a 1440 x 1080 @ 6419 Kbps. (7361 Kbps including audio)

[LoneThistle]

General
ID : 802
Complete name : F:\10-25_21-10-42_6941 (AC3,eng)_Spooks.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 21.5 MiB
Duration : 16s 666ms
Overall bit rate : 10.7 Mbps

Video
ID : 5400 (0x1518)
Menu ID : 6941 (0x1B1D)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Duration : 16s 680ms
Bit rate : 9 307 Kbps
Width : 1 440 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : MBAFF
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.239
Stream size : 18.5 MiB (86%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio #1
ID : 5401 (0x1519)
Menu ID : 6941 (0x1B1D)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 16s 672ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -964ms
Stream size : 782 KiB (4%)
Language : English

Audio #2
ID : 5402 (0x151A)
Menu ID : 6941 (0x1B1D)
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 2
Duration : 16s 560ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -921ms
Stream size : 518 KiB (2%)
Language : nar

Text
ID : 5403 (0x151B)
Menu ID : 6941 (0x1B1D)
Format : Teletext
Language : English

[scoobiesnacks]

Thanks
What will it take for them to go to 1920 instead of 1440 lines?

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnacks

Thanks
What will it take for them to go to 1920 instead of 1440 lines?

A miracle . it's already 1080 lines, it's the horizontal resolution that's 1440 not the vertical

[mwardy]

Originally Posted by scoobiesnacks

Thanks
What will it take for them to go to 1920 instead of 1440 lines?

Assured DTT bandwidth. They are worried that there is a remote chance it won't be available and so will not commit. Here's a cut and paste of what I made of this on a BBC blog.

"The choice of 1440*1080 goes against the BBC’s own recommendations for the implementation of Freeview HD. The BBC submission to Ofcom on the choice of the UK transmission mode for high-power Multiplex B using DVB-T2 modulation (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/spe...2ModeDecision/) argues strongly for the adoption of Mode 7, which gives the greatest bandwidth, and for the adoption of 1920*1080. As it says,

“1440x1080 resolution has been regarded as an option – but consumer demand for high-resolution HD services on large screens, plus the need to ensure effective PSB HD carriage finances, means that 1920x1080 is preferable. Mode 7 accommodates 1920x1080 as well as delivering targeted coverage.” (P. 24 n.8)

And

“The chosen transmission mode should support a picture resolution that maximises the delivery of HD benefits on viewers’ increasingly large and high-quality displays… Screens of 50” and above (particularly between 53” and 59”) ideally require the 1920x1080 format for maximum on-screen benefit. By the end of switchover (two years later, by January 2013), it is reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of sets sold will be around 55” and above, requiring the 1920x1080 format.” (Pp. 19-20)

Note the unambiguous 'requiring' in the final sentence. In the other document on the same web page, Ofcom confirmed Mode 7 will be used. So it seems that, contrary to the justifiable assumption in the circumstances that 1920 must not be able to fit on Freeview, it will, but it won't be used anyway.

So this decision seems mysterious. (And so much for effective PSB HD carriage finances.) The only reason I can see for it is that Ofcom picks up on the BBC’s observation that consumer equipment might not perform as expected and 98.5% coverage might not be achieved with T2 receivers, saying there is a ‘small risk’ of this happening. There will be a review 18 months after the publication of their letter to assess whether the new receivers’ performance is adequate, and if not they’ll want to reduce the bitrate to secure the required coverage. In the process, the BBC submission says “Resolution would need to be reduced, despite trends in content encoding towards 1920x1080.” (P. 22)

If this is the reason behind the decision, it looks like another instance of keeping expectations low in case (here, a ‘small risk’) they will have to be adjusted downwards later. The logic would be that it’s better for people never to see what can be done, so they won’t know what they are missing and will not complain when it’s taken away. And if it all works out and Mode 7 can be retained, will we get a resolution increase then? I’m not racing to William Hill to bet on it.

If these surmises are correct, it’s really depressing stuff. BBC HD will continue to operate below the BBC’s own preferred resolution and will be more expensive on some measure at least, and all to avoid the small possibility that there could be complaints down the line. What lack of ambition!

Of course if the BBC reject this reasoning and would like to provide their own explanation that would be very welcome."

[original URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcintern..._a_vi_2.html#P -- post 464. Document link changed to reflect its current location.]

[mwardy]

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

A miracle . it's already 1080 lines, it's the horizontal resolution that's 1440 not the vertical

Naughty! But a good question (to me, anyway): in the analogue days resolution was counted in terms of lines of horizontal resolution (presumably at some sort of standard distance I didn't pay enough attention to). Now we obviously tend to go by pixels, but do pixels translate cleanly into horizontal lines?

[Ray Cathode]

Originally Posted by mwardy

Assured DTT bandwidth.....

HD on DTT is limited by the 36Mbps available for 4 video channels. The average video bitrate will go down to 7.5Mbps in 2012 when a fifth channel is added (at 1440x1080i). 1920x1080 will only be possible when encoders improve. I suspect that too many BBC expectations were placed on prospective DVB-T2 encoder enhancements.

[mwardy]

Originally Posted by Ray Cathode

HD on DTT is limited by the 36Mbps available for 4 video channels.

The Ofcom document cited above says mode 7, i.e. a bandwidth of 40Mbps, will be used, which they say will allow 5 channels at 1920 (unless real life testing shows coverage is insufficient). Has that not happened then? Is there a way to tell?

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by mwardy

Naughty! But a good question (to me, anyway): in the analogue days resolution was counted in terms of lines of horizontal resolution (presumably at some sort of standard distance I didn't pay enough attention to). Now we obviously tend to go by pixels, but do pixels translate cleanly into horizontal lines?

Clearly they don't a 1440 x 1080 at 17 mbps looks better 1920 x 1080 at 8 mpbs, 720p at can look better than 1080i at a simillar bitrate. but as far as anologue is concerned to suggest that the original 4o5 line transmissions looked as good as the original uhf pal transmissions (625 lines 576 visible) is bizarre.

Even back then vertical resoluiton depended on the ability for a crt to display 405 lines, horizontal is dependant on the display. to interpret the analogue luminance signal

The same situation exists today. !080i transmissions always have a vertical resolution of 1080 lines, the horizontal; resolution is normally either 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080

SD is no different all SD channels use 576 lines (576i), horizontal resolution varies from a pathertic 544 x 576 (blurry vision) to 704 x 576 or 720 x 576 ( hard to tell the differncce )

[M60]

I think it's disgusting that the BBC make other platforms suffer just because their beloved Freeview won't accommodate 1920x1080i, yet the Scandinavians enjoy 1920x1080i. What is the bitrate on Virgin Media as I believe they do some of their own Encoding so might have chosen 1920x1080i?

I think it's very short-sighted that Freeview will ever offer anything decent HD-wise apart from the main PSB services and time that the BBC woke up and realised Satellite is the only platform with capable bandwidth. Yes they are worried about giving Sky an advantage but as part owners of Freesat this can and should be complementary to those Freeview viewers who come to expect more HD-wise.

[mwardy]

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

... but as far as anologue is concerned to suggest that the original 4o5 line transmissions looked as good as the original uhf pal transmissions (625 lines 576 visible) is bizarre.

Eh? I did say *horizontal* resolution. But I should have been clearer. I meant that the equipment quality was measured in terms of horizontal resolution of a grid of vertical lines. As I know you know.

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

horizontal is dependant on the display. to interpret the analogue luminance signal

Well, that's what I was getting at. It used to be a marker of technical quality, and tended to be a significant factor especially in assessing VHS machines way back when. In the popular magazines at least, which is what I was looking at at the time.

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

The same situation exists today. ...)

Yes, I know. But does this just mean measurement of horizontal resolution is no longer a useful guide to component quality in these digital days? As you never see it quoted any more I guess it has just been superseded.

[Ray Cathode]

Originally Posted by mwardy

The Ofcom document cited above says mode 7, i.e. a bandwidth of 40Mbps, will be used, which they say will allow 5 channels at 1920 (unless real life testing shows coverage is insufficient). Has that not happened then? Is there a way to tell?

The balance of 4Mbps is used for audio, subtitles, data and SI plus a safety net of null packets. S4C HD has extra for dual language subtitles and audios.

The audio format used will be AAC running at up to 384kbps per channel. The subtitle stream will run at 200kbps. S4C will require two of these (for Welsh and English) plus an additional 128kbps joint stereo AAC audio stream (for the second language). Each channel will have a mono HE-AAC 64kbps audio description stream. 100kbps has been allocated to each channel for Mheg applications.

Only 4 channels on Freeview HD currently at 1440x1080.

[mwardy]

Originally Posted by Ray Cathode

The balance of 4Mbps is used for audio, subtitles, data and SI plus a safety net of null packets. S4C HD has extra for dual language subtitles and audios. Only 4 channels on Freeview HD currently at 1440x1080.

OK--so is Ofcom (working off the back of BBC calcuations) wrong about 5 channels at 1920 with the current configuration? You suggested earlier that the BBC were over-optimistic about future encoder enhancements, and it is just about possible to read the Ofcom document (especially the key para going across pp 2-3) this way--but it is well hidden. The straightforward reading suggests it's possible with current tech, as does the original BBC submission.

[Ray Cathode]

Originally Posted by mwardy

OK--so is Ofcom (working off the back of BBC calcuations) wrong about 5 channels at 1920 with the current configuration? You suggested earlier that the BBC were over-optimistic about future encoder enhancements, and it is just about possible to read the Ofcom document (especially the key para going across pp 2-3) this way--but it is well hidden. The straightforward reading suggests it's possible with current tech, as does the original BBC submission.

All I know is that increasing to five HD channels on a Freeview mux depends on projected encoder enhancements becoming reality; expected to materialise by July 2012 in time for the Olympics. Remember that DVB-T2 is a very new technology and not many encoders exist. Ofcon was very clear about this only being a possibility and 2013 was mentioned but the BBC have a very good reason for their target date. Increased resolutions are in the same hopeful category because they require higher bitrates. I suspect the BBC would prefer to get the fifth channel going at 1440x1080 and then later improve to 1920x1080 rather than have four channels at the higher resolution, which could then affect their ambitious plans. It is indeed sad to see the BBC being seized by the commercial digital disease of reducing PQ to get more channels in. But after DAB I suppose it was inevitable. I wonder how long BBC SD will remain at 720x576 and audio of 256kbps?

[rparslow]

On a non-technical note

The beeb have a web page online http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/hd/faq/ shows live as of 03/11/2010 @ 7pm so ten days of testing, but why launch on a Wednesday ?? anyway I'm happy, now just a wait for BBC2,3&4 possible 2012,2013,2014...