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Could you prove JJJ are fake in a court of law?
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There has been a lot of miconceptions (lies?) written about JJJ on the forum, very little of which is based on fact.
Let's imagine the case was taken to court - obviously this would never happen because FMs remain anonymous and are allowed to post anything they like in the name of free speech.
I have some (very limited) knowledge of court procedure (had to study a bit of law for degree) but let's just suppose the believers were the accused standing in the dock.
We would be able to point to hundreds of hours of footage to defend ourselves.
The following are arguments (A) the non-believers frequently make along with the actual (captured on celluloid) facts (F)
A John wanted to be part of a couple to maximise fame.
F In that case why not go for Rachel? A Becks and Beyonce lookalike couple = magazine gold!
A He went for less attractive girl to gain public approval.
F Josie IS beautiful, Sunshine fitted the bill much better.
A Josie was obsessed with him and bullied him into a relationship.
F On day 4 John said 'theres definitely a chance' followed by 'Big Brother senses I have a soft spot for you.' Within 10 days he said 'I'm a big fan (of you)' and 'Are you naked under that (towel) 'Why didn't you pick me (in lighter game?' and 'Do you fancy Nathan?'
F Josie continually stated that 'He looks like a schoolboy' and 'He's like my little brother.' John heard and repeated this a couple of times and the footage of this shows him looking miserable - closing his eyes or putting his hands over his mouth. i.e it's NOT what he really felt.
IMO Josie did NOT fancy him until the girls told her he was besotted. You could see her having a lightbulb moment.
A She was always trying to kiss him and dry hump him and he hated it.
F There is hundreds of hours of footage of him following her around initiating the intimacy. In the one scene of her on top of him, he was visibly delighted and holding her hips, certainly not pushing her away.
IMO these public displays were just a joke, she was extremely confident by then that he felt the same.
A He insisted in waiting until they were outside. presumably again to avoid intimacy.
F Josie was seen dozens of times saying to John 'I think I like you but it might just be Big Brother eyes' and 'Maybe it's not real, we need to wait and see if WE feel the same outside.'
A Josie later denied kissing John after she said she had.
F Untrue, she never changed the story. She said (to Corin) they kissed on the lips, then later they had their first proper, full on snog. The only time she said they hadn't was to Dave when she felt it was none of the other HMs beeswax.
A He never got under the duvet until they were told the publc were interested in their romance.
F I am rewatching HL and am amazed at how much early affection he showed. He was often IN her bed snuggling while Govan was in the house (way before any outside info)
A He preferred Keeva because he cried when she left.
F The only thing he did with Keeva was bitch - he never went out of his way to touch her. When she was on top of him in bed he couldn't get far enough away (or any closer to Josie). After 'boobs out night' he basically told her to walk in order to patch things up with her boyfriend.
IMO he also wanted her gone because he needed peace to repair the damage she'd done to his relationship with Josie. I believe he was crying because he was partly responsible for her leaving.
A He left on fire escape day to get away from her.
F He thought that she compared their relationship to Shabby + Keeva and the more he tried to say it wasn't the same, the more angry she got. She told him to move beds and he couldn't bear being in the house without being near her.
Rewatch this episode. Note the bit where he chases her into the bathroom and cups his genitals while shouting 'Look at me! You don't need a Psychology degree to know how he wanted her to see him!
A They started a relationship on the outside to make money.
F He made lot's from semi-naked shots in mags and solo PAs. She has the DVD and perfume as well as possible presenting course.
Now that the initial fairytale romance angle has been done to death in OK there is no real need to stay together, but they do.
Everything I've stated as factual has been captured on film and is indisputable. I believe if we played it in the courtroom, the verdict would be unanimous against it being fake.
Can you prove otherwise? I don't mean just saying 'He doesn't like her cause he don't look at her like that and he clenches his fists innit.'
It would mean doing a lot of research, you'd have to actually sit through the LF instead of copying other non-believers posts or making wild assumptions!
I mean can you show me even 10 seconds of footage where he looks at her in disgust (except during arguments)? Where is the bit when he pushes her off him or runs away when she wants a cuddle? When did he say to Dave 'I find her repulsive?'
Show me your proof - not the nasty opinions usually churned out, but cold hard evidence.
I'm waiting...........................................................................
Ah you can't because you'd have to look pretty hard to find ANY scene (when they are in the same room) where they aren't cuddling, playfighting, holding hands looking into each others eyes, licking their lips and saying 'I love you'
I rest my case!
Let's imagine the case was taken to court - obviously this would never happen because FMs remain anonymous and are allowed to post anything they like in the name of free speech.
I have some (very limited) knowledge of court procedure (had to study a bit of law for degree) but let's just suppose the believers were the accused standing in the dock.
We would be able to point to hundreds of hours of footage to defend ourselves.
The following are arguments (A) the non-believers frequently make along with the actual (captured on celluloid) facts (F)
A John wanted to be part of a couple to maximise fame.
F In that case why not go for Rachel? A Becks and Beyonce lookalike couple = magazine gold!
A He went for less attractive girl to gain public approval.
F Josie IS beautiful, Sunshine fitted the bill much better.
A Josie was obsessed with him and bullied him into a relationship.
F On day 4 John said 'theres definitely a chance' followed by 'Big Brother senses I have a soft spot for you.' Within 10 days he said 'I'm a big fan (of you)' and 'Are you naked under that (towel) 'Why didn't you pick me (in lighter game?' and 'Do you fancy Nathan?'
F Josie continually stated that 'He looks like a schoolboy' and 'He's like my little brother.' John heard and repeated this a couple of times and the footage of this shows him looking miserable - closing his eyes or putting his hands over his mouth. i.e it's NOT what he really felt.
IMO Josie did NOT fancy him until the girls told her he was besotted. You could see her having a lightbulb moment.
A She was always trying to kiss him and dry hump him and he hated it.
F There is hundreds of hours of footage of him following her around initiating the intimacy. In the one scene of her on top of him, he was visibly delighted and holding her hips, certainly not pushing her away.
IMO these public displays were just a joke, she was extremely confident by then that he felt the same.
A He insisted in waiting until they were outside. presumably again to avoid intimacy.
F Josie was seen dozens of times saying to John 'I think I like you but it might just be Big Brother eyes' and 'Maybe it's not real, we need to wait and see if WE feel the same outside.'
A Josie later denied kissing John after she said she had.
F Untrue, she never changed the story. She said (to Corin) they kissed on the lips, then later they had their first proper, full on snog. The only time she said they hadn't was to Dave when she felt it was none of the other HMs beeswax.
A He never got under the duvet until they were told the publc were interested in their romance.
F I am rewatching HL and am amazed at how much early affection he showed. He was often IN her bed snuggling while Govan was in the house (way before any outside info)
A He preferred Keeva because he cried when she left.
F The only thing he did with Keeva was bitch - he never went out of his way to touch her. When she was on top of him in bed he couldn't get far enough away (or any closer to Josie). After 'boobs out night' he basically told her to walk in order to patch things up with her boyfriend.
IMO he also wanted her gone because he needed peace to repair the damage she'd done to his relationship with Josie. I believe he was crying because he was partly responsible for her leaving.
A He left on fire escape day to get away from her.
F He thought that she compared their relationship to Shabby + Keeva and the more he tried to say it wasn't the same, the more angry she got. She told him to move beds and he couldn't bear being in the house without being near her.
Rewatch this episode. Note the bit where he chases her into the bathroom and cups his genitals while shouting 'Look at me! You don't need a Psychology degree to know how he wanted her to see him!
A They started a relationship on the outside to make money.
F He made lot's from semi-naked shots in mags and solo PAs. She has the DVD and perfume as well as possible presenting course.
Now that the initial fairytale romance angle has been done to death in OK there is no real need to stay together, but they do.
Everything I've stated as factual has been captured on film and is indisputable. I believe if we played it in the courtroom, the verdict would be unanimous against it being fake.
Can you prove otherwise? I don't mean just saying 'He doesn't like her cause he don't look at her like that and he clenches his fists innit.'
It would mean doing a lot of research, you'd have to actually sit through the LF instead of copying other non-believers posts or making wild assumptions!
I mean can you show me even 10 seconds of footage where he looks at her in disgust (except during arguments)? Where is the bit when he pushes her off him or runs away when she wants a cuddle? When did he say to Dave 'I find her repulsive?'
Show me your proof - not the nasty opinions usually churned out, but cold hard evidence.
I'm waiting...........................................................................
Ah you can't because you'd have to look pretty hard to find ANY scene (when they are in the same room) where they aren't cuddling, playfighting, holding hands looking into each others eyes, licking their lips and saying 'I love you'
I rest my case!
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Comments
Notoriously verging on impossible to prove a 'negative' i.e. that they are not real ...
The real onus is in fact to prove a reality - and this is actually much more of a possibility ...
So we all wait with baited breath ...
Or as my father used to say ... 'agog with indifference' ...
I expect plenty of negative / abusive comments. It would be nice though if arguments could be put across in an intelligent, civilised manner!
I eagerly await PROOF.
But that is what I was saying ...
It is an acknowledged legal fact that to prove that something is non-existent is well nigh impossible ...
That is the problem with which we are dealing here ...
What a conundrum ...
Oh dear ...
In that case Greengirl, I'm afraid that you will be waiting a long time, because nobody but the protagonists has access to that kind of proof one way or the other, and even then it would still be considered subjective.
In here it's all just opinions, no more than that. Everybody has different ones, and sometimes they are opposing and we disagree, but that's what makes it such a great forum.:)
You present the two sides as Argument and Proof.
Apparently the Proof is your Facts. Actually it's all just evidence. If I was to cut and paste your post so that the Argument was now the Proof, and vice versa, I could say I've proved my case because my stuff is the Facts. So I will.
Finally, I don't think your closing argument should include a statement that you expect plenty of abusive comments. A great deal of work has gone into 'smoothing over'
It's not true, btw, the all he did with Keeva was bitch, and the implication that he was trying to get her to walk is questionable at best.
Of course "He preferred Keeva because he cried when she left." is a poor argument, but does anyone actually make it?
BTW, when relative to the wet shirt incidents did Keeva and Josie clash over the shopping list? And does anyone recall the lyrics to the potato / carrot song?
I'm sure plenty of die-hard fans have footage, so if anything negative exists I'm sure it could be found!
My only point is in absence of proof that it's fake the case would be thrown out of a court and the doubters would be paying expenses
I don't know what's going on in their heads - they could be the worlds greatest actors or hate each other now. It could last 10 years or 10 more days. There are no cameras (as far as we know) in their flat.
I just think it's interesting that (going by the footage we have) the relationship would be proved genuine.
I think you're forgetting that the people you expect to answer your post are not JJJ fans, therefore have not got hours of footage to prove their point.
*Now where do I swear on the bible*
I know what I saw I know what I heard, as none of us watched 24/7 non stop maybe some of us saw/heard things you missed. One thing you definitely missed was Josie telling Corin they hadn't kissed properly....That was some time after telling her they had snogged the night before (which they hadn't)
I may have missed the times he flirted with her, but I certainly didn't miss some of the times she tried to get it on with him and he struggled to get free.....I'm struggling with there being Hundreds of hours of him following her initiating the intimacy.
You seem to have got inside his head and read his thoughts about Keeva and why he cried.
There is absolutely no proof John James and Josie are anything more than mates. I'm afraid that is fact.
Proving a relationship is fake is far from impossible, especially if the standard of proof is balance of probabilities.
Pleeeeeease I feel like vomiting every time someone says that:eek::D
Well I'm a big fan of Big Brother but I certainly haven't got any footage and even if I had I wouldn't be inclined to pour over it just to prove a point on an Internet forum. If you are of the opinion that you have absolute and irrevocable proof of something which I contend cannot be proven this way, then fine, that's your prerogative. It does rather negate the need for this discussion though, does it not?
Or put another way, why does it bother you so what some random people on the Internet think, if you know the 'truth'? Because personally, apart from wishing them both well as ex contestants on a show that I loved, I don't care at all whether John James and Josie are in a sexual relationship or not.
.
The challenge was thrown down ... now you have accepted it ... which is great ... everyone is relieved I think that you have volunteered to do the near impossible (well at least very difficult indeed) thing ... good on ya ...
Looking forward to it ... brava you ...
You know, regardless of which side of the fence we sit on, isn't it fascinating that a chunk of us devoted livefeed watchers saw -
a touching, genuine romance begin in difficult circumstances -
while another chunk of us saw-
bad acting by a gruesome twosome in a fauxmance, and cursed the producers.
When I've rewatched recorded convos from BB my views, weeks on, haven't changed other than I now think John James is an even weirder, more complex character than I originally took in. Josie, well I just see the same duvet-wrapped plodding manipulator, sometimes exasperated when John James seems to lose the plot (of the showmance and his temper).
I'm a happy glass half full, not half empty person. I can also be a bit of a soppy at times. It's probably why I've always maintained a relationship with the 'Dear Fluffies' ^^^^^^ and received a positive response when I visited there in a bid to sort out the little 'local difficulty' this week.
So evidence as such still fails to solve the issue, one way or another. I watch the evidence and see one thing, you watch and see another. We have to accept this.
At the end of the day all it is either a money-making fauxmance on a gameshow or a romance that grew out of a gameshow, and made some money along the way.
Trying to prove an impossible case either way would be a waste of valuable court time.
And how could you possibly prove it is real - the only two that know the answer to that are the stick thin Aussie and his thumb-sucking side kick! Just wishful thinking on your part! :rolleyes:
Mathematics is full of logical statements that aren't falsifiable, it seems to me.
I thought the issue was whether they were genuinely in a relationship or whether it was something put on for media consumption, not whether they'd had sex.
A camera in the bedroom wouldn't necessarily prove anything either way, unless it recorded them saying it was fake. Even a fake couple could have sex.
There are in fact black swans, btw.
Unfortunately a lot of what is presented as fact is actually open to interpretation.
Fact John James kissed Josie on the lips at least 5 times that I can remember
Opinion whether those kisses are of someone falling in love or the sort your granny would give you.
Fact he cried when Keeva left
opinion was this becuase he secretly fancied her, because as you say he felt guilty about her leaving or because a genuine friend left.
Fact they were very close in the house
opinion they were close because they were falling in love or because they needed someone thing which they found in each other.
fact he told serval people in one way or another including keeva, Dave, Mario, JJ and Big brother (although who knows how this was edited) that he didn't see it like that.
opinion why he said it and what changed his opinion
Its the same since leaving the house
Fact they live together
Opinion whether they share a bed/are intimate
I know I come across as contradicting myself in many of my posts but I genuinely have no ideas whether I believe or not and open to a balanced discussion.
Fact for me lurking in the JJAT makes me believe and the main thread makes me question
'There has been a lot of miconceptions (lies?) written about JJJ on the forum, very little of which is based on fact.'
Now, I don't see lies, down here, or ^^^^^^^. What I see is opinion based on what people have viewed. Extremely divergent opinion at times, it must be said, but that's all.
I have said my opinion could one day be proved somehow to be wrong.
Will the OP too acknowledge that what they see as possible lies, could actually turn out to be fact?
In a case like this, it's also difficult to prove the relationship is genuine. If anything, it's easier to prove it's false than to prove it's genuine.
After all, people have married, even had children, with someone they never liked, let alone loved.
The real problem here is not anything about proving a negative; it's that we can't read their minds.
I misunderstood ... I thought you had risen to the challenge and were relishing the prospect ...
That is a shame ...
First, when I'm talking about the argument being falsifiable, I'm trying to reflect what lots of posters, and, in fairness, Alex BB3 in particular, has been saying for some days. For either side to engage in debate - and this is a debate forum after all - neither can enter the fray with 100% certainty. If they do, or believe they do, it simply doesn't work. For debate, those who are JJJ fans MUST allow for the possibility that they are maybe not in a relationship and we must allow for the fact that they perhaps are (:eek::D). I highly doubt it, but if I said it's completely impossible, I'm being illogical.
On the second point, the central issue has always been whether or not they are having a romantic, sexual relationship, from my point of view. I've said from Day One that they are 'in a relationship', of course they are, but so am I with my mum and my best friend. I'm not sleeping with them. What's being sold is a romantic, sexual relationship (smoothin' over anyone - apologies chalkmarks!
By the by, I think the OP might want to change the thread title to
Pedant Porn.....:D:D
Am out the door to Hallowe'en disco.... play nice
Your confusion brings a succint clarity to the entire debate. Bravo
Probably yes, and probably no
The evidence is out there for everyone to interpret. I saw it one way, and others like Pats (:cool:) saw it the other way. If we were both in the jury room then we could both come up with reasons why we think our interpretation is the correct one.
The point is though, what does any of this matter? If they're real then it's all good because they're in a loving and caring relationship. If it's all fake then they're laughing all the way to be bank. Either way JJJ are the winners don't you think?
Depends who was on the jury. If you, me and Pats - then it would be a hung jury. So I guess you have the casting vote as the longest serving FM.
There's your answer OP - it's real.
Ah but, I hear you say: was there a miscarriage of justice? :eek: Perhaps we need a re-trial?