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Old 09-11-2010, 01:29
Razor61289
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Recently got into these guys, brilliant band of Punk! Anarchy at its finest!
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:39
tortfeasor
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Where have you been? Check out Public Image when you get the time.

I personally prefer The Clash but I can't help but like The Pistols. There have been some excellent documentaries on Sky Arts over the weekend, which have featured fantastic interviews with Glen Matlock and others plus old footage of the Pistols.

P.S. Originally wrote "there's no point in asking, you'll get no reply" on my post but it is quite late I guess! Plus you didn't actually ask anything.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:15
Razor61289
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Where have you been? Check out Public Image when you get the time.

I personally prefer The Clash but I can't help but like The Pistols. There have been some excellent documentaries on Sky Arts over the weekend, which have featured fantastic interviews with Glen Matlock and others plus old footage of the Pistols.

P.S. Originally wrote "there's no point in asking, you'll get no reply" on my post but it is quite late I guess! Plus you didn't actually ask anything.
I know of Public Image Limited, mainly through The Bad Shephards low key version. Hehe, EMIIIIIIIIIIIIII!
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:26
mushymanrob
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Recently got into these guys, brilliant band of Punk! Anarchy at its finest!
they were FAR more relevant in 76-7... punk only took off because of the social/economic situation the country found itself in and the sound was far more relevant for us back then. i guess many young people today will judge punk by todays music standards, and not in a favourable light, but you had to be there to fully appreciate the essence of the movement.
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:39
Asarualim
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they were FAR more relevant in 76-7... punk only took off because of the social/economic situation the country found itself in and the sound was far more relevant for us back then. i guess many young people today will judge punk by todays music standards, and not in a favourable light, but you had to be there to fully appreciate the essence of the movement.

i think even by todays standards, Never Mind The Bollocks still stands up as a great album. Unlike a lot of punk at the time it was really well produced and performed, and Lydon's lyrics still have a relevance.

For the OP, I can also recommend The Filth And The Fury film by Julien Temple.
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Old 09-11-2010, 11:35
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And if the OP is interested in the history surrounding the Pistols and the punk era in the late 70s I'd highly recommend the book "England's Dreaming" by Jon Savage
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Old 09-11-2010, 14:08
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It's a swindle!
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Old 09-11-2010, 14:12
mushymanrob
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i think even by todays standards, Never Mind The Bollocks still stands up as a great album. Unlike a lot of punk at the time it was really well produced and performed, and Lydon's lyrics still have a relevance.

For the OP, I can also recommend The Filth And The Fury film by Julien Temple.
tbh i cant judge it by todays standards as i got it back in 77... so my relationship with the album is fixed then.

LOVE 'the filth and the fury'... the true story of the pistols and punk.
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Old 09-11-2010, 14:43
neel
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I personally hate the significance given to the Sex Pistols, granted I wasn't there at the time but contrary to the version of music history people want to portray they didn't create punk. They did things other bands were allready doing but with the canny marketing of Mr Mclaren behind them.

Frankly, they had more on common with the manufactured boy bands of the 90's than The Clash, Dead Kennedys et al. They were at their core an exercise in selling clothes and causing a fuss, but musically they were so much less significant in the development of punk than they are portrayed as, an exercise in style over subtance if ever there was one.

All the Sex Pistols really did was take something exciting happening in new york, and re package it for the Brittish market along with Westwoods styling and Mclarens Media savy. To me the sex pistols influenced far better music than they ever created.

The Dead Kennedys were more politically relevant (listen to god save the queen, its just an exercise in shouting meaningless slogans, with no actual message other than "look how edgy we are", then listen to Holiday in Cambodia or Police Truck by the DK's, they actually have something to say, more so see Stiff Little Fingers for a band that actually had something to say. And thats not even mentioning the Clash.

In terms of raw energy, New Rose by the Dammed is a far more exciting song than Anarchy in the UK.

Ian Dury was smarter and had a better sense of humour, Siouxsie and the Banshee's were more stylish (and frankly more charismatic, its Siouxsie in the famous sweary interview that really steals the show).

Thats not even going into far later american punk bands like Rancid and NOFX, Minor Threat and so on.

I'm not saying the Sex Pistols weren't culturally relevant, but it just frustrates me how they are given so much significance, when frankly was better punk before and far better punk after. They just happen to be the ones that swore on the telly and got noticed by the red tops.
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Old 09-11-2010, 14:51
soundstory
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I personally hate the significance given to the Sex Pistols, granted I wasn't there at the time but contrary to the version of music history people want to portray they didn't create punk. They did things other bands were allready doing but with the canny marketing of Mr Mclaren behind them.

Frankly, they had more on common with the manufactured boy bands of the 90's than The Clash, Dead Kennedys et al. They were at their core an exercise in selling clothes and causing a fuss, but musically they were so much less significant in the development of punk than they are portrayed as, an exercise in style over subtance if ever there was one.

All the Sex Pistols really did was take something exciting happening in new york, and re package it for the Brittish market along with Westwoods styling and Mclarens Media savy. To me the sex pistols influenced far better music than they ever created.

The Dead Kennedys were more politically relevant (listen to god save the queen, its just an exercise in shouting meaningless slogans, with no actual message other than "look how edgy we are", then listen to Holiday in Cambodia or Police Truck by the DK's, they actually have something to say, more so see Stiff Little Fingers for a band that actually had something to say. And thats not even mentioning the Clash.

In terms of raw energy, New Rose by the Dammed is a far more exciting song than Anarchy in the UK.

Ian Dury was smarter and had a better sense of humour, Siouxsie and the Banshee's were more stylish (and frankly more charismatic, its Siouxsie in the famous sweary interview that really steals the show).

Thats not even going into far later american punk bands like Rancid and NOFX, Minor Threat and so on.

I'm not saying the Sex Pistols weren't culturally relevant, but it just frustrates me how they are given so much significance, when frankly was better punk before and far better punk after. They just happen to be the ones that swore on the telly and got noticed by the red tops.
But having Malcolm Mclaren as the manager was the difference, the Pistols wouldn't have even exsisted without him.
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Old 09-11-2010, 15:00
neel
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You are absolutely right, hence the boyband comment.

The Pistols are interesting in a lot of ways, as an exercise in how to get publicity and how to manipulate the media, as a sort of living performance art piece and so on. And I credit Mclaren massively for creating them. It was a work of genius.

But the actual music they produced was in comparison to others at the time pretty average. It really does frustrate me that they are portrayed as almost creating punk, which is wrong in so many ways.
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Old 09-11-2010, 15:15
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The Sex Pistols most certainly did not create Punk Rock, nor were they the best British punk band. I generally like Punk Rock, but the only Sex Pistols tracks I tend to listen to are the Eddie Cochran covers they recorded after Johnny Rotten left the band.
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Old 09-11-2010, 15:28
revolver44
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I'm not saying the Sex Pistols weren't culturally relevant, but it just frustrates me how they are given so much significance, when frankly was better punk before and far better punk after. They just happen to be the ones that swore on the telly and got noticed by the red tops.
Oh dear. One of these posts. I think you're missing the point that if it wasn't for the Pistols the bands you quote wuldn't have existed. Seeing the Pistols in concert is what inspired Mick Jones, Siouxsie Sioux, Dave Vanyan, Adam Ant, the whole lot of them in fact to get a band together! The Clash would not have existed if it wasn't for the Pistols - Strummer was in a pub rock band called the 101'ers and upon seeing the Pistols play he immediately left and formed The Clash with Mick Jones. The Pistols inspired a generation of musicians and turned a stale, pompous rock scene on it's head, single handedly.
Malcolm's original idea was to have a new 'Bay City Rollers' so he could use them to promote the clothes in his shop but he didn't count on one thing - John Lydon. McLaren had no influence on their music at all, or indeed Lydon's image. The whole reaosn Lydon was spotted by Bernie Rhodes & McLaren was because he stood out so much from anybody else in the Kings Road at the time. He was wearing ripped clothes, safety pins and a 'I Hate Pink Floyd' t-shirt before Malcolm even met him! He also had spiky green hair before he joined the band too. Malcolm's supposed 'influence' and 'manipulation' of the band is a myth that he created himself in 'The Great Rock N Roll Swindle', a film he purposefully created to burst the bubble of importance surrounding punk rock in the late 70s. It worked too!
Nobody had seen or heard anything like the Pistols in 1976 - I'm talking pre-NMTB here of course. As a live act in the arse end of 1975 and through 1976 they created a cultural revolution that still reverberates today. They inspired some of the greatest bands of the late 70s and early 80s, including The Clash, Joy Division, The Jam...This is why they are of such great importance, and rightfully so. One of the most important bands in musical history, period.
Rant over!
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Old 09-11-2010, 15:57
neel
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Oh dear. One of these posts. I think you're missing the point that if it wasn't for the Pistols the bands you quote wuldn't have existed. Seeing the Pistols in concert is what inspired Mick Jones, Siouxsie Sioux, Dave Vanyan, Adam Ant, the whole lot of them in fact to get a band together! The Clash would not have existed if it wasn't for the Pistols - Strummer was in a pub rock band called the 101'ers and upon seeing the Pistols play he immediately left and formed The Clash with Mick Jones. The Pistols inspired a generation of musicians and turned a stale, pompous rock scene on it's head, single handedly.
Malcolm's original idea was to have a new 'Bay City Rollers' so he could use them to promote the clothes in his shop but he didn't count on one thing - John Lydon. McLaren had no influence on their music at all, or indeed Lydon's image. The whole reaosn Lydon was spotted by Bernie Rhodes & McLaren was because he stood out so much from anybody else in the Kings Road at the time. He was wearing ripped clothes, safety pins and a 'I Hate Pink Floyd' t-shirt before Malcolm even met him! He also had spiky green hair before he joined the band too. Malcolm's supposed 'influence' and 'manipulation' of the band is a myth that he created himself in 'The Great Rock N Roll Swindle', a film he purposefully created to burst the bubble of importance surrounding punk rock in the late 70s. It worked too!
Nobody had seen or heard anything like the Pistols in 1976 - I'm talking pre-NMTB here of course. As a live act in the arse end of 1975 and through 1976 they created a cultural revolution that still reverberates today. They inspired some of the greatest bands of the late 70s and early 80s, including The Clash, Joy Division, The Jam...This is why they are of such great importance, and rightfully so. One of the most important bands in musical history, period.
Rant over!
Not at all. I totally get the significance of the Pistols, and their influence on other bands hence....

To me the sex pistols influenced far better music than they ever created.
and

I'm not saying the Sex Pistols weren't culturally relevant, but it just frustrates me how they are given so much significance, when frankly was better punk before and far better punk after. They just happen to be the ones that swore on the telly and got noticed by the red tops.
and

And I credit Mclaren massively for creating them. It was a work of genius.
Your post is however an example of exactly what I have a problem with regarding the sex pistols. Its airbrushing the history of punk from a Brittish perspective. Yes, Lydon was doing all the things you describe before he met Mclaren, but a legion of American bands particularly in New York had done it all before, and better.

As I said the pistols are culturaly significant from a brittish point of view, but in terms of punk more generally, not so much.

If it wasn't for The Ramones, The Stooges The New York Dolls the Pistols would have had nothing to imitate and repackage.

I acknoledged the influence of The Pistols on other bands, to deny that would be foolish, but I find it utterly frustrating that Punk is portrayed as starting in Mclarens shop in Soho, it air brushes the New York Dolls et al out of history.

** edit ** The way the sex pistols are looked on today as somehow orignating punk it frankly a tribute to the genius of Mclaren, he created the myth that is the sex pistols, the reality and substance behind the myth is so much less impressive.
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Old 09-11-2010, 16:15
A321
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Also have a listen to some Black Flag or Hüsker Dü.
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Old 09-11-2010, 16:22
neel
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Also have a listen to some Black Flag or Hüsker Dü.
Yes. I would also recomend this. Particularly Black Flag.

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Old 09-11-2010, 16:56
Asarualim
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The way the sex pistols are looked on today as somehow orignating punk it frankly a tribute to the genius of Mclaren, he created the myth that is the sex pistols, the reality and substance behind the myth is so much less impressive.
I think the role that McLaren played has been overstated. A lot of the myth making incidents happened despite McLaren - the Grundy interview, the Thames boat trip, the behaviour leading them to be dropped by a couple of labels before they'd barely got a release out, etc. McLaren may have had a hand in initiating some of these, but it was the actions of the Pistols that made them part of the myth. The reality and substance of the Pistols is that they were a very good band, who made a very good album and did some amazing live performances, inspiring some amazing bands and some less than amazing bands along the way. Then McLaren spoiled it all by getting Sid Vicious in. It was a myth of McLarens creation that they couldn't play, but the Pistols were a tight band, having rehearsed for a long time before their debut performance. Bringing Sid in was a way of trying to make the "they can't play" myth come true.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:01
Asarualim
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tbh i cant judge it by todays standards as i got it back in 77... so my relationship with the album is fixed then.
I was a little young to get into them then, so it was probably the mid eighties before i became aware of them, but having seen a lot of music come and go in the meantime Never Mind... still gets pulled out for a play now and again and puts a lot of heay rock albums to shame on a lot of levels.

LOVE 'the filth and the fury'... the true story of the pistols and punk.
Yeah, definitely, along with England's Dreaming and Lydon's No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:07
neel
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The reality and substance of the Pistols is that they were a very good band, who made a very good album and did some amazing live performances, inspiring some amazing bands and some less than amazing bands along the way.
I agree, with pretty much everything you have said here, I do feel though that there is an insane amount of hyperbole about their role in punk and music history generally.

If the pistols hadn't brough punk to a larger audience in this country then frankly someone else would have. Punk was allready fully formed before the Sex Pistols got involved. To me they are Nirvana to the New York Dolls Pixies.

They got the credit, but it was the dolls that set out the template for what they made famous.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:37
mushymanrob
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Oh dear. One of these posts. I think you're missing the point that if it wasn't for the Pistols the bands you quote wuldn't have existed. Seeing the Pistols in concert is what inspired Mick Jones, Siouxsie Sioux, Dave Vanyan, Adam Ant, the whole lot of them in fact to get a band together! The Clash would not have existed if it wasn't for the Pistols - Strummer was in a pub rock band called the 101'ers and upon seeing the Pistols play he immediately left and formed The Clash with Mick Jones. The Pistols inspired a generation of musicians and turned a stale, pompous rock scene on it's head, single handedly.
Malcolm's original idea was to have a new 'Bay City Rollers' so he could use them to promote the clothes in his shop but he didn't count on one thing - John Lydon. McLaren had no influence on their music at all, or indeed Lydon's image. The whole reaosn Lydon was spotted by Bernie Rhodes & McLaren was because he stood out so much from anybody else in the Kings Road at the time. He was wearing ripped clothes, safety pins and a 'I Hate Pink Floyd' t-shirt before Malcolm even met him! He also had spiky green hair before he joined the band too. Malcolm's supposed 'influence' and 'manipulation' of the band is a myth that he created himself in 'The Great Rock N Roll Swindle', a film he purposefully created to burst the bubble of importance surrounding punk rock in the late 70s. It worked too!
Nobody had seen or heard anything like the Pistols in 1976 - I'm talking pre-NMTB here of course. As a live act in the arse end of 1975 and through 1976 they created a cultural revolution that still reverberates today. They inspired some of the greatest bands of the late 70s and early 80s, including The Clash, Joy Division, The Jam...This is why they are of such great importance, and rightfully so. One of the most important bands in musical history, period.
Rant over!
spot on...

neel, id suggest you watch 'the filth and the fury', plus listen to those of us who were there at the time, those of us who experienced, lived through and took part in the movement.

they were never meant to be musically significant, punk wasnt about technically proficient music. the sex pistols were the catalyst that the punk movement needed to take off.

yes there was already 'the sound' in america, but there was a reason that sound didnt take off here... the pistols and their mates gave the musical style relevance to us. the pistols spoke to us in a way the ramones, stooges, new york dolls didnt. thats nothing new, the 60's sounds were based on the uk anglacising american music, making it our own and making it relevant to us.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:47
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IIf the pistols hadn't brough punk to a larger audience in this country then frankly someone else would have. Punk was allready fully formed before the Sex Pistols got involved. To me they are Nirvana to the New York Dolls Pixies.

They got the credit, but it was the dolls that set out the template for what they made famous.
thats like saying 'if the beatles hadnt have pioneered pop music as we know it, someone else would'...thats irrelevant, the fact is that it WAS the pistols that lead the punk revolution in the uk, they spearheaded it, they influenced others to create differing styles of music, they gave uk punk a political edge, a message "why not". it wasnt american punk that to subsequent sub genres/styles in music being created... new wave, mod, new romantics, goth, indie, electro, all were formed by the british punk explosion ... not the american groups who were always a specialist taste.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:53
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I think the role that McLaren played has been overstated. A lot of the myth making incidents happened despite McLaren - the Grundy interview, the Thames boat trip, the behaviour leading them to be dropped by a couple of labels before they'd barely got a release out, etc. McLaren may have had a hand in initiating some of these, but it was the actions of the Pistols that made them part of the myth. The reality and substance of the Pistols is that they were a very good band, who made a very good album and did some amazing live performances, inspiring some amazing bands and some less than amazing bands along the way. Then McLaren spoiled it all by getting Sid Vicious in. It was a myth of McLarens creation that they couldn't play, but the Pistols were a tight band, having rehearsed for a long time before their debut performance. Bringing Sid in was a way of trying to make the "they can't play" myth come true.
exactly..... and another reason to watch 'the filth and the fury', to see the real evolution of the sex pistols, not the one mclaren wanted to portray.

incidentally, those who doubt lydons motives only need to familiarise themselves with pil... he wasnt going to be told what to do, thats why he left the pistols at the height of their popularity and formed public image ltd whos first single 'public image' was a fantastic reposte to mclaren. pil of course went on to create experimental music, vastly overlooked nowdays.
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Old 09-11-2010, 18:08
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this is a pretty enlightening article, wiki or not..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols
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Old 09-11-2010, 18:15
neel
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spot on...

neel, id suggest you watch 'the filth and the fury', plus listen to those of us who were there at the time, those of us who experienced, lived through and took part in the movement.

they were never meant to be musically significant, punk wasnt about technically proficient music. the sex pistols were the catalyst that the punk movement needed to take off.

yes there was already 'the sound' in america, but there was a reason that sound didnt take off here... the pistols and their mates gave the musical style relevance to us. the pistols spoke to us in a way the ramones, stooges, new york dolls didnt. thats nothing new, the 60's sounds were based on the uk anglacising american music, making it our own and making it relevant to us.
I've seen it, and I'm not a massive fan of the partonising tone in that post. I may not have been there at the time but I know my punk, you really don't have to tell me that punk wasn't about technically profficient music.

The new york dolls et all had created more than just "the sound" of punk. The style, and even the word "punk" to describe it was well an truly in place. It was fully formed before Mclaren and the pistols brought it to the uk and merged it with other artistic inlfuences like the french situationalists and dada-ists, to kick start punk in the Uk.

Also if you go back and read my posts i've recognised both the influence they had on other artists and their cultural significance generally and I specifically stated that they took what the dolls ect did and put it across to a brittish audience.

Please, please read what i've said before you patronise me about what I do and don't know about punk.

The point i'm trying to make, that in Brittain we massively overstate what the pistols did in the history of punk, and massively understate the roll of The Ramones, The Dolls, Stooges et al. The post i've quoted illustrates the point i'm trying to make perfectly.

I wasn't there in the 70's, but looking back at the pistols they just don't hold up as well as The American bands i've mentioned, The New Wave bands, even other brittish punk bands like the Dammed. Certainly in the longer term, The Misfits, Nofx, DK's, Black Flag, Minor Threat took punk and ran with it and made it into something of long term significance, not just something short term.

The Sex Pistols may have spoken to you at the time, and I don't deny that they were massively influential to punk in the UK. But looking back on their work they don't speak to me in the same way as the Doll's, The Clash, The Dammed and so many other great punk bands are still able to.

For that reason I feel totally justified in what i'm saying. They brought punk to the uk and that is important. But what they brought allready existed and it is criminal the extent to which we in this country start the punk timeline with The pistols. Mclaren ect and air brush the creative minds that influenced them out of history.

For me, its the equivilent of Talking about Romantic literature as starting at Lord Byron, while ignoring Coleridge etc. Byron did what other had been doing for years before hand, but he did it with even more drugs and while winding up the establishment a lot. He is the most charismatic of the romantic poets but he used a long established template.

For that reason we hear a lot about and celebrate Byron while we talk far less about Keats, Shelly and so forth.
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Old 09-11-2010, 18:25
neel
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this is a pretty enlightening article, wiki or not..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols
Oh god. I didn't see this.

Thats tipped it from "perhaps he isn't meaning to patronise me", to just plain patronising and disrespectfull....
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