Ricky was only in the dance off twice and one of those times was when he was arrested. Everyone other than Chris were in the bottom two at least once. Also he came second in the longest ever strictly and in the semi he had to had got the public vote to get to the final so you can't say he never had the public vote.

And Ricky was still the best dancer even in the final last year yes he made a mistake in the lindy hop but the moves he was doing were harder and ... actually I going to stop there because I don't want to start the debate again so ... anyways... this is all so last year

Bu not necessarily bottom two of the public vote, at least in the cases of Gethin and Austin. I think that's the key here. Gethin, in particular,was most likely topping the public vote, it's just a set of unfortunate circumstances and a ridiculously unfair scoring system in the semis that forced him out via the dance off. Austin too was very popular (although probably not as popular as Tom) but the scoring system did for him also. Ricky, I don't think, was ever that popular and was likely in the bottom few voting wise (of course the actual voting figures will never be known so a lot of this is down to speculation and guess work). What probably got Ricky to the final was Len's comments after his and Natalie's Argentine Tango but he was never going to poll enough to win. It was Chris's title to lose from about week 5. Point being, there was no controversy about him being more popular but losing out.

I was only talking about last series in my last post.

We will never know how popular Ricky was as you said the actual voting figure are never released and Ricky got to the final on the strength of his dancing not because of what Len's said - the judges don't have that much power but what he said did help.

The thing is that Matt DA should have been knocked out in the quarter finals after forgetting not one but two dances! This is where things went wrong in Series 5. I don't deny he was a great dancer but he didn't deserve to stay to the detriment of Gethin.

Apologies if I went off topic a bit. I'm not denying Ricky was a good dancer but he wasn't that popular for whatever reason. In regards to the semis, I'm thinking he and Ali were quite close in the voting up to that point but Ali was probably polling slightly more (due to Ricky ending up in more dance offs near the end of the series when there's less places to hide on the leaderboard). Len's comments could have persuaded enough people to vote a different way, hence the turn around in fortunes, so I think those comments were very significant. I'm not denying Ricky should've been in the finals on the strength of his dancing alone though. To be honest, I wasn't really bothered whether Ali or Ricky went through as they were never going to win.

Agreed, although it wasn't the quarters that did for Gethin, it was the semis. Even if the public hadn't felt sorry for Matt DA and voted to keep him in, he would've probably survived in the dance off against Letitia so the semi line up would have been the same. An unfair voting system and an overmarked waltz did for Gethin.

Sometimes I wonder if when they were put out, it wasn't because the public saw the truth of the situation and actually made it about the dancing. Austin wasn't as good as the rest and neither was Gethin and it's too much of a conspiracy to say that when they went out, it was the points that screwed them. Maybe the public at large just started to take it seriously and left the who's hotter debate to the side. The only time I can think of this not happening was last year when a painful 'dancer' triumphed. But I honestly think that before that horror, the public really did just start taking it more seriously towards the end.

I think Darren Gough winning puts to bed the theory that the public take it seriously towards the end. Yes he was good but better than Zoe or Colin?

With the voting figures kept under lock and key we'll never know for sure. Austin probably wasn't top of the voting, Tom was (after John left) but Gethin almost certainly was in his year. As you mentioned yourself, last year Chris wasn't the best dancer (Gethin and Austin were certainly better) but still got the votes, so it stands to reason that the public didn't desert Gethin either. Austin's situation was slightly different in that had he topped the public vote he would probably have escaped the dance off.

While I agree that it was the semis, what should have happened was that Matt should have been knocked out in the quarters when he forgot his dances, leaving Letitia, Gethin and Alesha in the semis. But the GBP, as usual, used the sympathy vote. This made way for Matt's overmarked waltz and for Len to favour him instead of Geth, who had never been in the dance off!

I agree in principle but I still think Matt would have had to dance off against Letitia and probably would have gone through anyway. Although I guess if he was nervous and tense he may have fluffed his dance off dance up too. Anyway, it's all ifs and buts, what happened, happened.

Not necessarily. In the last two weeks the voting order was revealed and it was consistantly Tom-Rachel-Lisa, which would match with what happened earlier. If the voting order in the quarter had been Austin-Tom-Rachel-Lisa then it would have been as it happened - Austin & Lisa bottom 2.

Equally it seems very likely that Gethin outpolled Alesha in the semis, but Alesha may well have had a Bottom Two Bounce in the week of the semis after the shock of her being in the dance-off the week before.

The first 2 series show obvious examples of people taking it more "seriously" at the end. Natasha beats Chris, despite probably being consistantly out-polled by him throughout the series, and Julian moves from top of the public vote in the semi to bottom in the final. There's also some evidence that Matt was beating Mark in the public vote towards the end of Series 4 (he definitely did at least once) and then Mark won, although really there's at least more of an argument there as to who is the better dancer. Also Emma out-polls Louisa in the end, which would go against the grain of the series and in favour of the "better dancer", at least according to the judges.

I don't know if the shift is in favour of the better dancers so much as people changing in mindset from "who do I want to keep in?" to "who do I want to/should win?". Generally I think this would favour the better dancers to some degree, but not overwhelmnigly so.

They all have "personality". What part of Gethin and Austin's personality was good and what part of Rachel and Ricky's was bad?

I personally don't care if some people are more or less "smiley", more or less "quirky" than others. I judge them on their dancing. Rachel and Ricky were superb.

I think there always has been a huge difference between voting for someone to get into the final and voting for someone to win the entire thing.

Unfortunately, sometimes people get caught in the cross fire and the reasons of postions on leaderboards and people not voting for the middle are trotted out, but by and large the winner gets through without ever troubling the bottom 2 wherever they finish week by week and whatever the point allocation/dance off situation (only Natasha and Alesha have won after a single bottom 2 visit) and a couple of times the runner up has as well.

History would suggest that neither Vincente nor Brendan should be clearing a space on the mantlepiece for the glitterball just yet.

Thats true about the winners not being in the bottom 2.....I didnt watch series 1 so cant comment..........Alesha was in the bottom 2 in quarter final week when I think an enormous surge of sympathy votes for Matt skewed the vote rather otherwise I think both Alesha and Gethin would have avoided the bottom 2 entirely.......The same bottom 2 thing applies to Rachel and Lisa........they were never going to win and Chris avoiding the bottom 2 every week despite some middle of the table performances was a huge indication that he was on course for the win....

He didn't he stayed in to the detriment of Leticia which I was absolutely fine with - and I'm sorry but the semi-final just wouldn't have been as good with Tish in there - I loved her but latin wasn't her forte and the samba the most difficult of the latin dances is not something she would have been any good at. All Matt got was a second chance which he deserved a lot more than many more whom have got in. Gethin fans have NO proof that he topped the public vote - after being in the dance-off it is perfectly possible that Alesha's fans had rushed to the phones to save her and like or not the quarters had proved Matt had a lot of support.

However I was pretty peeved when Austin went out so I do have some sympathy with Gethin fans in retrospect - and I think that it would have been fairer if the dance-off had been done on the worst dances rather than the best or not been there at all. I'm ambivalent about the dance-off - it might have saved Jimi but it doomed Austin, Jodie and Cherie and possibly Gaby as well. Also I think we may have lost Matt DA and Barnesy before they did their salsas without it which would have been a real shame and we don't know if Kate, Kenny, or the two Jos would have lingered around for longer without it. However I think the problem is that without the beeb releasing the voting numbers then we have no way of knowing what would have happened in series five to seven without it and ergo no way of judging it's worth.

At one point, Ricky topped the leaderboard and still ended up in the dance off!

Thinking about last year's final 3 couples (Cola, Briali and Ratalie ) and contrasting them with the likely final 3 in this (anyone from Scott, Kara, Matt, Ann and maybe Gavin) - this series has so much more potential. Very few wow dances in series 6 and 7, IMO.

Because he was overrated, Bandy & danced with Natalie.

Well once we get down to fewer couples that entirely possible....he obviously didnt get the public votes that week or he would have avoided it. I cant remember who he was in the dance off with but this series without the dance off he could have topped the board and gone home.....but its not likely ntil the later stages.

Eventually to the detriment of Gethin! That is what I meant. Matt shouldn't have been in the semis.

Even then it's statistcally unlikely, the leaderboard has to be reversed by the public. I think it happened with only 4 or 5 couples left, so you do have a point there.

Only in so far as you believe he would have beaten Letitia in a dance off.

I'd agree that in the final people vote simply on 'who is better?' because the 'who do you want to see next week' question no longer applies.

But I have to add that I thought Austin did the best dances in his year, and I thought Gethin's ballroom dances were the ones I enjoyed the most and found the most beautiful. So when I voted for Austin and Gethin I was voting for the dancing. I don't need or expect you to agree on who was best. But 'best' is a subjective term. I don't think it's appropriate to assume that everyone who voted for the person you wouldn't vote for agreed with you about who danced best but ignored that and voted for some other reason.

As a few posters have said Ricky was in the dance off the week he was arrested and the following week when he topped the leaderboard. I do think that had an effect on the voting for him as it did not make very pleasant headlines at the time (although shame because he was cleared this year)
Other than that he got to week 11 without being in the dance off so must have been doing something right!!
Great dancer.

That would have been an interesting dance off.

Matt DA was afflicted by the dancing curse that evening. His foxtrot was a shambles and his samba wasn't much better. His confidence would, almost certainly, have been rock bottom going into a dance off. Contrast that with Letitia who had scored 6 points more with her waltz and performed her best dance of the series. It's likely that Letitia would clearly have out-danced Matt in that final showdown. What would the judges have done? The only thing they could have done with integrity given the system? (i.e. put Letitia through) Or would they have made unconvincing remarks about turning things round/pulling things out of the bag/dramatic improvement etc and put Matt through because he was clearly the better overall dancer?

We'll never know because it didn't happen (and I bet the judges were relieved). Just as we'll never know exactly who topped the public vote in the semi final. Interesting (if futile ) to speculate though.

The two males were popular with the female vote but lost out to Matt and Lisa because the judges thought someone else was better- and because, in at least Austin's case, a choice had to be made. The margins were such that that choice was very debateable. Its not clear that either of those two should have won - although its arguable that any final without them lost a key competitor and the fact that they are popular means a lot of people will argue it.

Rachel got hit by the problem that the voters are predominantly female - and beautiful, southern, young, females don't get their vote when there's a hunky male or a Mills and Boon journey story around to vote for. Although Emma and Zoe had the same problem with votes, they didn't even make it to a final two and outdance their winner in the way Rachel did in the last 2 rounds and, unlike Darren and Mark, there wasn't any strong argument that the winner of that series was the best, second best or even most improved, dancer.

Ricky losing I think is as big a nonsense as Rachel, but he's not clearly the dethroned winner because Ali who could have beaten him wasn't even there and we never resolve the issue - which should have gone down to the show dance. He's also up against known biases in the vote - and he's undermined his vote by doing the show part time and getting himself some bad publicity at the wrong time. A big part of the problem, though, is that the personality argument has moved on. "Personality" formerly essentially means sex appeal for many and its supported by real journey stories and a high, top 2 or 3, standard of dancing. By last year, in the skid marks of John Sergeant dragging his pro around, "personality" has moved on and is more visibly about catch phrases and comedy. As "personality" changes its meaning, and the judges are ignored more and more, people find more and more justification for voting for the comedy act. Ricky ends up as the dethroned King who loses out to the sixth or seventh best dancer and is never seen to beat his main competition - but not many weep because dancing has become optional anyway by that stage in the evolution of SCD.