[guypd]

Originally Posted by Glaston

How do you propose to get this ethnic cleansing through British courts?

When other countries do it to us, it's "border control".

When we do it to other countries, it's "ethnic cleansing".

Why do you hate Britain so much? Worried about that knock on the door? Papers a tad iffy?

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by guypd

When we do it to other countries, it's "ethnic cleansing".

You might have a form of ethnic cleansing, if we leave the EU. Britain and the 26 countries of the EU exchanging nationals. They send our nationals back to the UK, we send their nationals back to their respective countries.

Assuming none of the EU citizens lodge appeal against their removal from the UK. We'd out of the EU, so they might try their luck with seeking asylum.

[DS9]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Once out of the EU, you might expect reciprocal measures from the countries whose nationals are coming back from the UK.

And expect numerous legal appeals from EU citizens people claiming asylum here in the UK. At the moment, you can't claim asylum if you come from the 26 other EU countries. After we leave, you might have a go at claiming.

Claim asylum on what grounds? Even Zimbabweans are very rarely successful in claiming asylum.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by DS9

Claim asylum on what grounds? Even Zimbabweans are very rarely successful in claiming asylum.

I know.

Still be worth a shot. Even if it buys you some time in the UK. After all why go home today, when if you lodge some flimsy appeal, it might delay your deportation to the EU by a week or two ?

[guypd]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

You might have a form of ethnic cleansing, if we leave the EU.

This is groundless scaremongering.

One of the reasons to get OUT the EU is to take control of our borders. If people are fairly here, they ain't a-goin' nowhere. If they're not...well, hey.

If you're worried about illegals ACTUALLY finally having their collars felt, then I have no sympathy. At a guess, the majority would feel the same. Is this "ethnic cleansing"? OK, we can call it "ripe tomatoes" if we want. It is what it is.

It's like when the Europhiles say "but nobody would trade with us ever ever ever again arghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!" - turns out trade is almost entirely independent on EU restrictions and that standard scaremongering is also groundless, LOL.

[Mrc20]

The EU needs to revert back to the state where it was a trading bloc rather than the current, federalist system.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by guypd

If you're worried about illegals ACTUALLY finally having their collars felt,

I do not want people living in this country illegally. I want the UKBA and police to put a stop to people entering this country without the necessary legal permission.

Originally Posted by guypd

Is this "ethnic cleansing"? OK,

I agree with you. It could be "ethnic cleansing"

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by Mrc20

The EU needs to revert back to the state where it was a trading bloc rather than the current, federalist system.

and end the single market: the right for UK citizens to work and reside where ever they want in the EU ?

[paulschapman]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

and end the single market: the right for UK citizens to work and reside where ever they want in the EU ?

UK Citizens had that right back when the original referendum occurred. The fact that the member states find it a tad inconvenient to keep to rules it does not follow that the rules did not exist.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by paulschapman

UK Citizens had that right back when the original referendum occurred.

We had a referendum in EEC membership in June 1975. Was there a single european market in 1975 ?

12 year later, the single european act was passed by the UK parliament in 1987. And was introduced across the EU on 31 December 1992.

[KHUK]

This thread is yet another example of yet another opinion poll where the majority want 'out' of the European Union (EU). Opinion polls commissioned just this year show the same anti-EU sentiment. In fact, a study commissioned by the EU itself showed that Britain remains the most Eurosceptic country in the EU! This, in my view, speaks louder than the farcical debate going on in Parliament right now!

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by KHUK

This thread is yet another example of yet another opinion poll where the majority want 'out' of the European Union (EU). Opinion polls commissioned just this year show the same anti-EU sentiment. In fact, a study commissioned by the EU itself showed that Britain remains the most Eurosceptic country in the EU! This, in my view, speaks louder than the farcical debate going on in Parliament right now!

Exactly what relationship would you like with the EU, once we had left ?

[KHUK]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Exactly what relationship would you like with the EU, once we had left ?

Simple: free trade and friendly cooperation. The world does not start and stop with the EU!

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by KHUK

Simple: free trade and friendly cooperation.

• Would you like free trade only or customs unions ?
• Keep access to the EU's single market ?
• UK citizens right to work and live in the EU ?
• Retain the EHIC card, consumer direct on distance selling, working time regs, EU airline delay compensaton ?
• Keep the right to buy goods tax free in the EU (the non EU limit is £390) ?

Originally Posted by KHUK

The world does not start and stop with the EU!

Agreed.

[KHUK]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

• Would you like free trade only or customs unions ?
• Keep access to the EU's single market ?
• UK citizens right to work and live in the EU ?
• Retain the EHIC card, consumer direct on distance selling, working time regs, EU airline delay compensaton ?
• Keep the right to buy goods tax free in the EU (the non EU limit is £390) ?

I want free trade and friendly cooperation. Whatever it takes!

[guypd]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

I do not want people living in this country illegally. I want the UKBA and police to put a stop to people entering this country without the necessary legal permission.

I agree with you. It could be "ethnic cleansing"

You directly contradicted yourself. First you said you wanted all illegals stopped, then you said it could amount to ethnic cleansing.

And which statement of mine are you "agreeing" with? - I find this whole post very odd.

[mithy73]

Originally Posted by KHUK

This thread is yet another example of yet another opinion poll where the majority want 'out' of the European Union (EU). Opinion polls commissioned just this year show the same anti-EU sentiment. In fact, a study commissioned by the EU itself showed that Britain remains the most Eurosceptic country in the EU! This, in my view, speaks louder than the farcical debate going on in Parliament right now!

Opinion polls, that is, except for the recent BPIX poll shown in this recent Mail article, which shows 34% in favour of leaving the EU, 22% undecided and 44% unconvinced of the case for terminating our membership of the bloc.

(I'm assuming that readers would not consider the Mail to be biased in favour of EU membership, though I'm willing to listen to arguments that might disabuse me of that notion.)

Which does rather suggest that - assuming we ever get a referendum on membership, which it seems would require some fairly non-trivial reshaping of our political landscape - secessionists would do well not to rest on their laurels or raise premature cries of victory: that specific argument is, as things stand, very far from settled (though there does appear to be a settled will for redefinition of that relationship, short of termination of it).

You are more or less right on one point though: Eurobarometer and other polls have shown the UK to be amongst the most sceptical, and normally the most sceptical, of all EU states.

On the subject of the debate, I've yet to hear it so I can't comment on whether it was farcical - though it's clear that the three-line whip imposed by the major parties has ruffled a fair few feathers (to say the least). I can understand the Government's reasoning on this, but I also have a great deal of sympathy with the view that it has been a strategic blunder (assuming, of course, that retention of EU membership is the Government's strategy; of course, you never know!)

On the vote itself, I'm pleased to see that my prediction of the result (okay, guess) was only out by ten votes or so.

[KHUK]

Originally Posted by mithy73

Opinion polls, that is, except for the recent BPIX poll shown in this recent Mail article, which shows 34% in favour of leaving the EU, 22% undecided and 44% unconvinced of the case for terminating our membership of the bloc.

(I'm assuming that readers would not consider the Mail to be biased in favour of EU membership, though I'm willing to listen to arguments that might disabuse me of that notion.)

Which does rather suggest that - assuming we ever get a referendum on membership, which it seems would require some fairly non-trivial reshaping of our political landscape - secessionists would do well not to rest on their laurels or raise premature cries of victory: that specific argument is, as things stand, very far from settled (though there does appear to be a settled will for redefinition of that relationship, short of termination of it).

You are more or less right on one point though: Eurobarometer and other polls have shown the UK to be amongst the most sceptical, and normally the most sceptical, of all EU states.

On the subject of the debate, I've yet to hear it so I can't comment on whether it was farcical - though it's clear that the three-line whip imposed by the major parties has ruffled a fair few feathers (to say the least). I can understand the Government's reasoning on this, but I also have a great deal of sympathy with the view that it has been a strategic blunder (assuming, of course, that retention of EU membership is the Government's strategy; of course, you never know!)

On the vote itself, I'm pleased to see that my prediction of the result (okay, guess) was only out by ten votes or so.

To some extent, I agree.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by guypd

You directly contradicted yourself. First you said you wanted all illegals stopped, then you said it could amount to ethnic cleansing.

I do not want people staying this country without the necessary legal permission.

Originally Posted by guypd

And which statement of mine are you "agreeing" with? - I find this whole post very odd.

If we left the EU, we might just find ourselves in some kind on international 'ethnic cleansing' with British citizens returning from the EU, and some EU citizens going back to the EU.

[wallster]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

If we left the EU, we might just find ourselves in some kind on international 'ethnic cleansing' with British citizens returning from the EU, and some EU citizens going back to the EU.

Would the hundreds of thousands of expats have to return from France, Spain and Portugal? That would place enormous strains on the NHS

[DS9]

Originally Posted by wallster

Would the hundreds of thousands of expats have to return from France, Spain and Portugal? That would place enormous strains on the NHS

The vast majority of them use the NHS anyway. They're not supposed to, but they do anyway.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by DS9

The vast majority of them use the NHS anyway. They're not supposed to, but they do anyway.

Define 'vast majority' ?

And exactly how are these group of people 'not supposed to use the NHS' ? And why do the NHS agree to treat them if they are 'not supposed to'.

[DS9]

Originally Posted by Nick1966

Define 'vast majority' ?

And exactly how are these group of people 'not supposed to use the NHS' ? And why do the NHS agree to treat them if they are 'not supposed to'.

'More than half'. I can't be more precise because the NHS doesn't even try to get the numbers.

They're not supposed to use the NHS because the rules say British citizens lose the right to use the NHS if they move permanently overseas. There was an exemption for OAPs but Labour took that away.

The NHS can't police Brits temporarily returning from overseas any more than it can foreigners who steal treatment. In fact it's harder to police the Brits. Which is why no-one bothers to try.

[Nick1966]

Originally Posted by DS9

'More than half'. I can't be more precise because the NHS doesn't even try to get the numbers.

They're not supposed to use the NHS because the rules say British citizens lose the right to use the NHS if they move permanently overseas. There was an exemption for OAPs but Labour took that away.

The NHS can't police Brits temporarily returning from overseas any more than it can foreigners who steal treatment. In fact it's harder to police the Brits. Which is why no-one bothers to try.

Interesting point, which I did not know.

Mind you, I do wonder how you go about 'stealing treatment'. Does that mean you go to the doctor, he gives you drugs or remedy for your illness and you run off like a thief in the night ?

I carry an EHIC card allowing some free health care in the EEA. Would I be 'stealing treatment' if I broke my leg in Stockholm ? (God forbid)

[trunkster]

On a purely selfish and nationalistic note. If we were out of the EU we'd be in a far better position to take advantage of and exploit Europe once it sinks in to the abyss?
David Cameron's analogy of helping to put out the neighbours house that's on fire is all very well. But what if you don't actually like your neighbours, and they're neighbours from hell(ala the Greeks)?