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'Browning' meat before casserole
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luckyeight
23-11-2010
Recently I followed an Allegra McEvedy recipe for beef & guiness casserole with horseradish dumplings.
In common with most casserole recipes, the instructions were to brown the chunks of meat in a pan over a high heat and then add the other ingredients and go from there...
Even after two and a half hours of cooking, the beef was tough.
Why is this browing process recommended?

My friend cooks a big silverside piece of beef by quite simply putting it in a casserole dish, pouring over stout, adding a carrot and onion and slow cooking in the oven for a couple of hours. The meat is always melt in the mouth.
Couldn't the same thing be achieved in a casserole without the browing? Am I right to believe that it toughens the meat?

Oh, and finally - the dumplings would really have benefitted from some salt, I thought. There was none indicated in the recipe. Would other FMs put salt in their dumplings? (oo er missus!)
1Greedyrosie
23-11-2010
I do put salt and pepper in my dumplings, yes.

In my experience, although I don;t always brown the meat I want to use (its more of a presentational thing imo, but each to their own) I never found browning meat toughened it,

I think you could look at:
What cut of meat you are using
What temperature are you cooking for and for how long
How big are your pieces of meat.

I'm sorry it didn't turn out so well.
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by 1Greedyrosie:
“I do put salt and pepper in my dumplings, yes.

In my experience, although I don;t always brown the meat I want to use (its more of a presentational thing imo, but each to their own) I never found browning meat toughened it,

I think you could look at:
What cut of meat you are using
What temperature are you cooking for and for how long
How big are your pieces of meat.

I'm sorry it didn't turn out so well. ”

Thanks for your advice, 1Greedyrosie.. I can't understand why the meat was so tough - I used the cut recommended in the recipe, cut to the size recommended and at the heat recommended! This has happened to me before when I cooked a beef casserole and browned the meat - even after hours, the meat was really tough.
It seems to be a mystery!
indianwells
23-11-2010
The only time i've ended up with tough meat is when i've become impatient and turned the heat up. Slow and low means just that, just ask any pitmaster from the Southern US. 16-24 hours is not uncommon for slow cooking meat.

What cut of meat was it?
What temp?
How long?
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by indianwells:
“The only time i've ended up with tough meat is when i've become impatient and turned the heat up. Slow and low means just that, just ask any pitmaster from the Southern US. 16-24 hours is not uncommon for slow cooking meat.

What cut of meat was it?
What temp?
How long?”

Ok, specifically it was braising beef, half an inch thickness, which I cooked for at least two and a half hours before adding the dumplings, then for another half hour. The heat on the hob was a '4', '12' being the highest (it's a ceramic hob) and I made sure that 'the stew should be steaming but not boiling' as Allegra advised.

I don't understand how my friend can cook a piece of beef big enough to feed six for a couple of hours and for it to be meltingly soft, when the little pieces I had in the casserole didn't soften at all. Surely most casseroles aren't cooked for longer than three hours?
indianwells
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“Ok, specifically it was braising beef, half an inch thickness, which I cooked for at least two and a half hours before adding the dumplings, then for another half hour. The heat on the hob was a '4', '12' being the highest (it's a ceramic hob) and I made sure that 'the stew should be steaming but not boiling' as Allegra advised.

I don't understand how my friend can cook a piece of beef big enough to feed six for a couple of hours and for it to be meltingly soft, when the little pieces I had in the casserole didn't soften at all. Surely most casseroles aren't cooked for longer than three hours?”

Well they're not, but I would suggest the heat was still too high, maybe try setting 1 or 2? Or maybe better in the oven where the heat will be more "gentle".
Sad_BB_Addict
23-11-2010
The "brown or not to brown" question has come up before, and I seem to remember FMs were divided over browning beef before casseroling.

My degree was in chemistry, and as I understand it, browning is not done to increase tenderness but (a) to increase the "beefy" taste by caramelising the surfaces of the cubed beef, and (b) to stop the juices in the beef leeching into the stock, which would result in lovely gravy but less tasty beef.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...es-flavor.html

It would be easy to do a proper experiment - next time you do a beef casserole, do it in two smaller containers, one with the beef browned and one not, but with every other aspect of the recipe identical. Post your results here!
See my Cooking Mackerel thread for my last experiment regarding "skin side down first" or not!

I'm wondering if a "best of both worlds" compromise would be to brown about 2/3 of the beef, leaving the other 1/3 unbrowned to contribute to the flavour of the stock.

/chemist hat off; amateur psychiatrist hat on/

(a) If the people you cook for love your beef casserole, there is little motivation to try alternatives, even though they might be "better".

(b) Uncertainty is tricky to live with, and many people prefer to invent "certainties", eg. there is only one best way to do roast potatoes, you should always brine chicken before roasting it, it's how my mother used to do it, etc etc.
1Greedyrosie
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“Ok, specifically it was braising beef, half an inch thickness, which I cooked for at least two and a half hours before adding the dumplings, then for another half hour. The heat on the hob was a '4', '12' being the highest (it's a ceramic hob) and I made sure that 'the stew should be steaming but not boiling' as Allegra advised.

I don't understand how my friend can cook a piece of beef big enough to feed six for a couple of hours and for it to be meltingly soft, when the little pieces I had in the casserole didn't soften at all. Surely most casseroles aren't cooked for longer than three hours?”

MMhm. Well, i think what we're driving at then, is that it may be a little overcooked. If I were cooking something like that, and I only have a gas hob, it would be as low as I could get it for UP TO 3 hours. I would expect to see maybe a few little bubbles on the surface, but not even a very fast simmer. There is also a difference between braising and stewing steak and I do believe stewing steak to be more suitable for this treatment. Also, I like to get larger pieces of the steak and cut it into slightly bigger pieces.

What I would probably also do, is check after about 1 hr 45 and 2 hr 15 to see if the meat was done. You never know.
Do you have a link to the recipe btw, or was it written on paper?
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by Sad_BB_Addict:
“The "brown or not to brown" question has come up before, and I seem to remember FMs were divided over browning beef before casseroling.

My degree was in chemistry, and as I understand it, browning is not done to increase tenderness but (a) to increase the "beefy" taste by caramelising the surfaces of the cubed beef, and (b) to stop the juices in the beef leeching into the stock, which would result in lovely gravy but less tasty beef.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...es-flavor.html

It would be easy to do a proper experiment - next time you do a beef casserole, do it in two smaller containers, one with the beef browned and one not, but with every other aspect of the recipe identical. Post your results here!
See my Cooking Mackerel thread for my last experiment regarding "skin side down first" or not!

I'm wondering if a "best of both worlds" compromise would be to brown about 2/3 of the beef, leaving the other 1/3 unbrowned to contribute to the flavour of the stock.

/chemist hat off; amateur psychiatrist hat on/

(a) If the people you cook for love your beef casserole, there is little motivation to try alternatives, even though they might be "better".

(b) Uncertainty is tricky to live with, and many people prefer to invent "certainties", eg. there is only one best way to do roast potatoes, you should always brine chicken before roasting it, it's how my mother used to do it, etc etc.”

This is really quite a marvellous post, thank you! I am very tempted to perform the scientific experiement.
And the ones I love did not like the casserole. Neither did I
1Greedyrosie
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by Sad_BB_Addict:
“The "brown or not to brown" question has come up before, and I seem to remember FMs were divided over browning beef before casseroling.

SNIP...

(a) If the people you cook for love your beef casserole, there is little motivation to try alternatives, even though they might be "better".

.”

Agree sort of, except to say, it should be how YOU like it, as you are the one toiling over it. Sod the loved ones, they'll prolly love it however you do it.
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by 1Greedyrosie:
“MMhm. Well, i think what we're driving at then, is that it may be a little overcooked. If I were cooking something like that, and I only have a gas hob, it would be as low as I could get it for UP TO 3 hours. I would expect to see maybe a few little bubbles on the surface, but not even a very fast simmer. There is also a difference between braising and stewing steak and I do believe stewing steak to be more suitable for this treatment. Also, I like to get larger pieces of the steak and cut it into slightly bigger pieces.

What I would probably also do, is check after about 1 hr 45 and 2 hr 15 to see if the meat was done. You never know.
Do you have a link to the recipe btw, or was it written on paper?”

Well this is very interesting. I was always under the impression that you couldn't overcook meat in a casserole.. I did try it probably at around those times, and it was very tough then, too.

The recipe is on paper, but I'll look for a link online to see if I can find one.

In the recipe, it says "Once the stew has had its cooking time (2 - 2 half hours) check to see if the meat is beginning to soften." So it's obviously expected that it will be tough until 2 hours minimum. I think I am getting more and more confused!
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by indianwells:
“Well they're not, but I would suggest the heat was still too high, maybe try setting 1 or 2? Or maybe better in the oven where the heat will be more "gentle".”

I am really beginning to think that the oven is the way to go.... that's how my friend cooks her beef and it is incredible and extremely tender...
Sad_BB_Addict
23-11-2010
[quote=luckyeight;45902559]
Originally Posted by indianwells:
“Well they're not, but I would suggest the heat was still too high, maybe try setting 1 or 2? Or maybe better in the oven where the heat will be more "gentle".[/QUOTE]

I am really beginning to think that the oven is the way to go.... that's how my friend cooks her beef and it is incredible and extremely tender...”

Another possibility is to ask Santa to bring you a slow cooker, or at least buy one before the VAT goes up on 4th Jan !
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by 1Greedyrosie:
“MMhm. Well, i think what we're driving at then, is that it may be a little overcooked. If I were cooking something like that, and I only have a gas hob, it would be as low as I could get it for UP TO 3 hours. I would expect to see maybe a few little bubbles on the surface, but not even a very fast simmer. There is also a difference between braising and stewing steak and I do believe stewing steak to be more suitable for this treatment. Also, I like to get larger pieces of the steak and cut it into slightly bigger pieces.

What I would probably also do, is check after about 1 hr 45 and 2 hr 15 to see if the meat was done. You never know.
Do you have a link to the recipe btw, or was it written on paper?”

I have found it 1Greedyrosie! -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...stew-dumplings
Sad_BB_Addict
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“I have found it 1Greedyrosie! -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...stew-dumplings”

A quick google found a Saint Delia recipe:
http://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/c...dumplings.html
Looks good to me.
Sad_BB_Addict
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“I have found it 1Greedyrosie! -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...stew-dumplings”

That recipe looks good to me - it's possible you just got unlucky and bought some dodgy beef.
luckyeight
23-11-2010
It's all too much for me! But I would like to resume this discussion, and also focus on dumplings, after a good night's sleep! :yawn: Intend to sleep long and deeply like beef in a slow cooker, kindof. Night!
1Greedyrosie
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“I have found it 1Greedyrosie! -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...stew-dumplings”

If I were a gambling woman (and I am, as it goes), I'd say you're cooking it on too high a heat. I don't think the meat would have had much to do with it, especially if you;d have soaked it in Guinness for that length of time.
When you next decide to make a casserole, try turning it down to the very lowest heat possible immediately after bringing it to the boil, and ensure you're using a heavy bottomed pan, to distribut e the heat properly. Alternatively stick it in the oven in gas mark 2.

As an aside, I'd put salt and pepper in my casserole too
Shrike
23-11-2010
I suspect the quality of the meat is probably at fault - certainly I wouldn't skip browning it as it does have a chemical reaction which improves the flavour.
I generally find with slow cooked brown meat dishes its best to cook the day before and re-heat. This gives the natural acids in the veg (onion, carrot, turnip) time to break down the fibres in the meat to soften it. An alternative is to marinade the meat with something acidic like tomato or onion for a few hours.
grassmarket
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by Shrike:
“ An alternative is to marinade the meat with something acidic like tomato or onion for a few hours.”

Marinade with pineapple, that is a natural meat tenderizer.
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by 1Greedyrosie:
“If I were a gambling woman (and I am, as it goes), I'd say you're cooking it on too high a heat. I don't think the meat would have had much to do with it, especially if you;d have soaked it in Guinness for that length of time.
When you next decide to make a casserole, try turning it down to the very lowest heat possible immediately after bringing it to the boil, and ensure you're using a heavy bottomed pan, to distribute the heat properly. Alternatively stick it in the oven in gas mark 2.

As an aside, I'd put salt and pepper in my casserole too ”

I guess that is the most likely explaination then - thank you for all your detective work.
I am definitely keener to go down the oven road now, Do you know what gas mark 2 is in degrees eg 150?
And I soaked the meat, patted it dry, etc - and used a Le Creusset casserole dish... So if the heat was too high, did the meat cook too quickly and toughen because of that? Would it have ever softened if I had left it longer or would the heat have put paid to that ever happening?
luckyeight
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by Shrike:
“I suspect the quality of the meat is probably at fault - certainly I wouldn't skip browning it as it does have a chemical reaction which improves the flavour.
I generally find with slow cooked brown meat dishes its best to cook the day before and re-heat. This gives the natural acids in the veg (onion, carrot, turnip) time to break down the fibres in the meat to soften it. An alternative is to marinade the meat with something acidic like tomato or onion for a few hours.”

Perhaps the meat was not of a high enough quality - I just bought some Morrison's pre-packed braising beef off the shelf..
And the 'cook the day before and reheat' is a great idea.

I haven't come across the concept of marinating with something acidic to break down the fibres of the meat. I like the sound of this.
1Greedyrosie
23-11-2010
Gas 2 is 150, I'm pretty sure.

I really cannot imagine your meat would have gone any softer, no matter how long you cooked it for.
Let us know how you get on next time, will you?
degsyhufc
23-11-2010
Originally Posted by luckyeight:
“Well this is very interesting. I was always under the impression that you couldn't overcook meat in a casserole.. I did try it probably at around those times, and it was very tough then, too.

The recipe is on paper, but I'll look for a link online to see if I can find one.

In the recipe, it says "Once the stew has had its cooking time (2 - 2 half hours) check to see if the meat is beginning to soften." So it's obviously expected that it will be tough until 2 hours minimum. I think I am getting more and more confused!”

I agree with the others that the heat may have been too high. It's not that when you casserole for 4-5 hours you are overcooking the meat it's that it is cooking so slow and gentle that the meat becomes more tender.


I found this the other week when cooking topside steaks in a braising/casserole type dish.
I seared the steaks and then put them into the dish and covered with the brasing liquid.
After 1 1/2 hours the steaks were still tough and looked a bit like cardboard.

At that half way point it was the point to add extra ingredients, recover and cook for another 1 1/2.
After that the meat was falling apart and almost dissolving into the sauce. It was so lovely and tender but just needed the time for the reaction to take place.
burton07
23-11-2010
I often cook stews and casseroles with braising or stewing steak. I have never had tough steak even if only cooked for 2 hours (although I usually cook for at least 2 1/2 hours).

One tip is not bring the stew to the boil after the meat has gone in. Boiling toughens meat. I always toss in flour and brown the meat first.

I always put salt and pepper in dumplings, and parsley too sometimes.
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