Agreed, women do the spins, lots of them, lots of steps. Kara had to climb a mountain, in the process nearly breaking Artem's neck.

It would not be easy either for Artem to do all the spins and Kara to hoist Artem to the sky. Donnie has two bad knees, Gaynor has one, not easy for anybody.


(Ann just leaned over and said to me,

"That Tangerine just took the words out of my mouth." )

LOL She's that close to you? Can you please give her a slap for me then? Or at least throw water in her face - do something, anything!

Oh Donnie Burns *sigh* He dressed up as santa for my dance class when I was a little girl and gave out presents. Okay there were other kids in the class too but the important thing is he gave me a present

You appear to know your stuff, so I'm not going to argue.
However, it's always struck me that the female celebs can often get away with "striking a pose" (I haven't any idea of the technical term) a lot easier than their male counterparts.
If the male celebrity tries the same trick (ie, not actually doing much, just standing looking pretty) he is open to ridiclule..not surprising really, it probably makes him look a right plonker.

No chance, whether in Newton Abbot or London, Ann watches for banana skins on the ground and is never without her bodyguard Terry, 24x7. Now you know why he was awake to post at 5am.

How thrilling to receive a present from a World Champion. He danced an exquisite demo rumba with Gaynor in Blackpool last May. But nowadays he takes care not to do things like jumping down 4 steps on the Strictly set.

As they say, there is always the exception to prove the rule.
Women are just as likely to lack grace and be clodhoppers.

Dennis Waterman ?..we finally know the identity of "er indoors".

Damn! Well maybe we can find some costume person on the Strictly set who'd be willing to stuff a couple of itchy coos down her dress on Saturday. Might actually make her supposed comedy routines funny for once

Donnie and Gaynor were just a cut above for me. I've never seen another couple that blew me away like that, not even my beloved Cutlers. They were just perfection.

Lol, the only time I think someone looks silly dancing is when they're clearly not giving it their all. It's such a cliche but if you don't go flat out, you'll look so much worse than if you just went for it. Even if you feel silly, you won't look silly. I think that might be the major problem for the male celebs. Women are used to dancing, just moving their bodies in every day life. For instance in the rumba, the perfect hip movement is the one women do every day when they stand with more weight on one leg and push into their hip (usually with their hand on their waist staring daggers at the man in their life lol). So I do see why it comes more naturally to women than to men, women's bodies move when they're walking in a way that's advantageous to dancing and it's a movement you very rarely see from men in their day to day lives lol. But that doesn't mean they don't have it in them and it certainly doesn't mean that men have a harder time on the dancefloor. It's just that the mental block is usually with the men more than the women, nothing to do with dancing ability or level of difficulty - leading vs more steps and the like. I'm not explaining myself well at all lol, ignore me

Very interesting reading all the opinions on this thread.

I just wanted to say that in the first few weeks of SCD, I think it is probably is easier for the female celebs. I say that because if a male celeb isn't very good (for what ever reason), then this will stand out more because at that stage of the competition he hasn't got a hope in hell's chance of even looking like he is leading his partner. A female celeb will be led by her pro partner and we've all seen male pros pushing and pulling their celeb into position.

But as partnerships develop and skill levels improve, some men won't stand out much for the wrong reasons, but some females might. A good male celeb will start to look better, but a poor female celeb won't. The balance will change.

Does this make sense?

PS I'm not a dancer - can you tell?

Oooh, careful....

Off topic, but parenting is the same. New Dads get praised for not being incompetent whereas new Mums get criticised for not being perfect.

You what? Are we now having a general whinge about sexism?

Leading - especially in a choreographed routine - is not "harder" than following. They're both pretty much the same, in terms of difficulty.

But amateur leaders in a pro/am competition do have it harder than amateur followers. Because amateur followers, if they forget stuff, can be more easily carried than amateur leaders.

So yes, celeb leaders, in a sense, have a tougher job, simply because of the nature of the lead/follow relationship.

Hardly - merely offering some sympathy to new Mums or sage advice to prospective ones . All I did as a new Dad to impress people was avoid dropping the baby. My wife seemed to be expected to grow and cook organic gourmet feasts for the nippers whilst keeping the house like an entry in "Ideal Home" magazine or face the wrath of the local chapter of the NCT.

Somehow, the imbalance of expectations of the genders doesn't seem quite right, just like it doesn't in SCD, albeit more seriously, as you never get the "relief" of being ejected in a "Parent-Off" judged by Gina Ford.

My understanding of the demographics of voting in all these reality shows is that they're a little biased towards the men.

Is that "fair" - well, no. It's sexist, obviously. But I'm not sure what can be done about it.

And the fact is, 3 of the winners have been female, and the majority of the contestants remaining in the current series are also female...

Well yes, but 4 of the last 5 winners have been men, so the trend is clearly favouring the guys.

I doubt this is sexist. On a cursory examination of each year's runners and riders, there's a fairly even mix of age and likely ability at the outset, so there's a level playing field amongst the controllable elements. It's just that at the sharp end, the guys attract the phone vote. I'd say it was due to the greater proportion of women amongst SCD viewers voting for the attractive guys, but this doesn't explain 2009.

They don't always do that though.

I don't really think it's sexism as such. Most of the viewers are gay men and women, and a lot of them tend to vote for who they fancy. It isn't really a negative vote against women in that sense.

I'm annoyed with it too. Being male, and having danced and taken classes in a variety of styles, I can say from my experience many women seemed to have a harder time of it than I did.

One thing in partner dancing, though, is the asymmetry between leading and following. One can't lead well until one is comfortable with their own dancing. I suspect most of the male celebs are being back-led by their female pros.

Nonsense.

I would say that women are more inclined to dance than men and are more likely to move to music than men. If you go to parties women are more likely to get up and have a bop where as men are usually dragged up, prefering the safety of a drink.

In my experience women in dance classes appear more natural. Men so tend to struggle more at first. These are my observations.

As far as it being harder to lead or follow. In my experience it is easier to follow than to lead, but that can depend on what your partner is like. A follower can just as easily control what the leader does, usually by being heavy or simply not following what you do. In dance tests an experienced dancer who is doing the following can lead the leader just as much.

On the social dance floor the leader has the hardest job by far because they have to decide what steps to do lead the lady be aware of where everyone else is around them and what they are doing and might do, change steps instantly when someone else does not do what you are expecting them. Latin is generally easier in this respect as the dances are generally danced more on the spot, except Samba and Passo which like ballroom dances travel anti-clockwise round the floor.

As a man currently learning the lady's steps it is easier to follow but it is very hard to let go and let the leader lead because I have always had to lead and have done so for quite a few years

I do feel like men are given extra marks sometimes, particularly in the Latin dances. If they move their hips at all, then they're seen as being "brave". Len is particularly bad for doing this; Scott's Rumba is a prime example.

Tall people aren't given extra marks just for being tall, and the older contestants certainly aren't given extra marks. Those attributes are much more of a disadvantage. Men shouldn't be given extra marks because they find some of the dances embarrassing. Most women aren't comfortable doing dances like the Rumba either.

Life is not perfect. The point is, it's really not easier for the female pro, and anyone who thinks it is simply doesn't know much about dancing.

But the celeb followers have a tough job too, just in a different way. This is why I think it's such an unfair criticism. Okay so the men have to lead - yeah, I can see why that would be daunting. But on the other hand, would they prefer double/triple the amount of steps, spins, double spins and all the eyes on them constantly? "I did everything Fred Astaire did except backwards and in high heels". I think it's time that Ginger's quote was taken seriously, not just a funny aside. If the men had to do what the females had to do, there would be carnage - at least in my dance class lol. Whereas if the females had to lead, I don't see how that would present a problem - it never has for me when I do the male steps with a beginner, it's easy for me. And because I find it easy, I don't get it when people use it as an excuse for why it's harder for the celeb males. It sounds just like the usual poor men, they have such a hard time of it, women have it easy attitude that I think should have disappeared years ago.

Leading Vs More and harder steps - it equals itself out.

When they're out of hold, it's more difficult, yes - but it's still largely lead-and-follow, even then.

And a lot of the time, when they're in hold, they can almost get away with forgetting the steps, as long as the technique is OK.


In my dance class, I regularly insist that the leaders and followers swap roles, so that both can see things from the "other side".

It's a real eye-opener for both men and women, as to how tough it is from both sides.

*Waves hand in air* Me me me - clodhopper extrodinare, if they gave prizes in clodhopping I'd be World Champion

Initially it is more of a problem for the amateur men than the women. However, in order to follow and make it look effortless, the women still have to know what they are doing and when, and if it all goes pear shaped, they have to be able to follow while not knowing what's coming next.

Alesha won my vote (for me - my opinion only) when Matt Cutler forgot the routine for about 30 seconds of their foxtrot (I think) quite early in the competition a few years ago. The foxtrot is a bl**dy hard dance at the best of times, especially with all the heel turns etc, and the fact they almost made it look effortless meant that a) she followed him, and b) she knew how the foxtrot worked, not just the specific choreography,