We sometimes do that in our class too and it quickly changes from the men crowing they could do everything to yelps of fright and twisted ankles lol. But - and I don't know if our class is the anomaly, I really don't - but whenever we switch partners, another tactic to show us all how we rely on our own known partner, all the men either pull me around thinking it's leading or take the back seat and expect me to lead. I think unless the male dancer is very, very good, in most amateur classes it's the women doing the leading, despite the proper rules.

And I don't know about you but I have never once been led into a turn, spin or any other step in latin where the woman is out there on her own. The theory may say to be led, the teacher might try to enforce that but in general, in amateur classes the women do it all on their own with no help and don't seem to find it impossible. So to me that says that even were they to be led, it wouldn't be needed and the man's role is not an essential one. That's why I think leading is given too much weight. The women can get along fine without it and if we can, the professional females on Strictly would have no bother at all lol. So there is no pressure on the celeb males to lead, it's a fallacy that there is.

But they have a lifetime of arse shaking to draw from (unless you are Ann Widdecombe), while it is not normally expected from non-dancer men. So they may have a mental barrier to let go. Have a look at Matt and Scott.

You could be my partner. We could both try and lead, tread on each other's feet and then fall over. All hopelessly out of time with the music and each other.

While I find the bolded part insulting, I agree about the sentiment. I said that in another post. Men have more of a mental block about dancing, especially latin, because it's less socially acceptable for them to dance. But I don't see why that should be taken into account when scoring or judging them. Are we to take Felicity's age into account? Ann's gerth? Gavin's shyness? Or are we just to judge them dancing? I feel that the men get special consideration because they have that mental block and that's extremely unfair. If it's a woman that's shy, a little like Ali last year, she's berated and told to let go, get on with it. If it's a man, he's coddled and given there there's. It's a double standard and it's unfair. Especially considering it is no harder for them than the girls, either in regard to what they're given to do in the dance or what insecurities they take into the dance. Wah wah ... just do it. Stop whinging.

To be fair, whilst these observations are made, I don't think they result in sympathy votes from the judges. Gavin has been routinely pasted for showing unacceptably low levels of emotion, and marked accordingly, particularly by Craig.

(For male non-actor types, showing emotion is very difficult, as English guys are conditioned from birth not to show it. Showing the required emotion in the Rumba, instead of the emotion that is most likely being felt (i.e. fear, panic or humiliation) must be very difficult indeed. English girls don't have the same lifelong conditioning to bottle up emotions, so this side of things might come more naturally. We shall see, no doubt, when Widders takes to the floor on Saturday...)

Likewise, Len often observes that the Jive is hard for tall people, but this doesn't appear to make him any more generous than he is to vertically challenged Jivers.

Whether the public vote for tall Jivers or unemotional exponents of the Rhumba out of sympathy is anyone's guess. I suspect they do, which may be influenced by the judges' comments, as without said comments, us Armchair Dancers wouldn't know Jiving is hard if you're tall, for example.

In social dancing the woman often does not know what is coming next and has to follow the man's lead. I rarely dance any sort of routine. That is the followers job. I completely agree that the woman has to know what to do and when. However in hold the man has a lot more control. Out of hold it is then almost impossible.

As for Alesha following Matt Cutler, all she had to do was keep walking backwards in time which should not have been too much of a problem for a singer. Yes the foxtrot is hard but the celebs spend huge amounts of time training for a 90 second routine. An average dancer may spend about 15 minutes to half an hour a week learning any one dance where I go. That means that the celebs get the equivalent of 1 or 2 years tuition in a week and that is one to one tuition with a top professional not as a member of a group class.

This goes on sometimes, but it is appalling.

Without straying into PC issues of equal roles I would like to know how a person of either gender going backwards can lead without slamming into other couples or chairs. On a sparse dance floor where you know every inch, possibly. Not sure how close body contact can be maintained by a puller rather than pusher. If traffic lights are ignored and the practice is institutionalised, then it ends up as a different type of traffic.

This reminds me of TV scenes with two actors: A asks a scripted question and B gives a scripted answer. If they are badly under-rehearsed then B answers before A has delivered his question. Suspension of disbelief is shattered. It is not two persons interacting but two inidividuals delivering their lines separately.

Perhaps it comes down to a question of which is worse:
does the woman want to be badly driven?
does the man want to be towed by a pickup?

I agree. Indeed 'following' can be harder than leading, and other forums I've seen discuss this issue are much less committed to the idea that leading means it's harder for the men than this forum has been.

Fortunately, the judges don't seem to be saying it's harder for the men so much this year. (I haven't heard them say it at all.)

That's an excellent point, and I don't think I've seen it before.

Men (leaders) don't have so many heel turns either, and even the spins/pivots are easier in terms of footwork. They aren't expected to do all the flashy showy bits as much.

I would say that the roles are equally difficult, they are just different.

Says the Anne supporter Matt DA mooted that argument when premoted the first tour and was unintential hilarious to the GMTV presenters as sitting interviewing him was none other than Fiona Philips who until Widdy appeared this year appeared held the wooden spoon for the ladies.

This debate is widening into gender comparisons and who does more work. If we are not careful Billy Jean King will come in and demand more pay for the woman partner . There is gap enough now between two ballroom partners to drive a bus through. Any more devisive disputes and they will be dancing at arms length.

If a woman is 6 foot and a man is 5 foot 3, then it certainly would make sense for her to lead. But in which position should she use her initiattive? Should she lead by backward tugging or forward propulsion? I would limit the scope of Len's Law by rephrasing it as:

"In ballroom hold it is safer to be clueless following backwards than clueless propelling forwards."

The clueless leader will propel the partnership in circles despite not dancing the viennese waltz.

can I just ask which really is the most difficult dance cos it seems that every dance is discribed as 'the most difficult' by some one ( usually Claudia) but they can't all be , so which one is

Argentine Tango

Of the ballroom dances, from what I understand, foxtrot is the trickiest. I'd guess that waltz is seen as the easiest, as it's the first ballroom dance they do.

Of the Latin dances, again from my limited understanding, I'd say that ... umm... dunno. But I think that cha-cha-char is the easiest for similar reasons..

With one glaringly obvious acception , namely the mistress of clodhopperism , Ann herself .

Among Ten Dance jive and quickstep with nonstop movement are physically the most demanding, said Karen Hardy. After a 90-second jive with Ian on Strictly 40yo lifelong ballet ace Darcey Bussell could hardly speak .

I believe the most difficult dance is the one imposing a requirement a dancer cannot meet. Kenny Logan could not hear a beat, so keeping time in cha cha cha was beyond him. He would do a superb Maori war dance though. The foxtrot with its requirement for smooth musical understanding floored many celebs -- a great pity Kelly Brook did not do the foxtrot. The sambo roll and bounce would be difficult without a supple body. For myself I would like most of all to be in tune with the emotion of each dance, like an actor absorbing the spirit of each part, not the script.

Many subtleties would become clear if explained with penetrating insight in private lessons with a world champion. Memo to self: must win lottery soon.

Do you remember the state Ian was in after his QS with Jade last year? The girl made mincemeat of the poor guy!

Hardest:

Ballroom - foxtrot.
Latin - jive

Easiest:

Ballroom - tango/waltz
Latin - samba

Most boring:

Ballroom - Viennese waltz
Latin: Cha cha cha

Most fun:

Ballroom - QS
Latin - jive

I love them all, apart from the cha cha and the Viennese waltz. I think the most satisfying dance to do well is the foxtrot in ballroom and strangely, the rumba in latin. It's just personal preference though.

[quote=-Sid-;45942370]I'm not expert but I imagine it is more of a challenge for the men in the Ballroom especially - because as has been pointed out, they have to lead.

Oh yes, I'm sure it's really tough to "lead" a pro dancer who choreographed the routine!

[quote=tinyangel;45981383]
well that it rather the point

the trick is for the male celelb to be seen to be leading the dance

it reallly does look very strange when a female pro is pushing and pulling her partner around the floor

Well it must be given the number of times we've seen it done badly and heard the judges comment that the woman looked like she was leading the man.

Didn't mean for this thread to be a battle of the sexes as I don't think that either the men or the women have it easier than each other on the show. However, when one of the judges states that a dance is 'so hard if you're a man' it always seems to be taken as gospel and I just thought the notion needed to be questioned. Len, in particular, seems inclined to give the male dancers bonus points for having a go at something regardless of whether they manage to pull it off.