Originally Posted by DavidJames:
“Pah, this is a serious thread you know.”
“Pah, this is a serious thread you know.”
Says who?
Is Ann homophobic?
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Originally Posted by mossy2103:
“Nothing to do with this thread, that is just a rather weak attempt to justify yourself and this rather nasty thread.
I have stated my opinion,.I'm not going to get drawn further into such a discussion. I have already added a late edit to my earlier post which sums it up:
"As an attempt at character assassination this thread seems to rank with the best. As another Ann hate thread, it's up there with quite a few others. But in my view such nasty threads have no place in this forum, and have no relevance to SCD itself.,"
All in my opinion, and one that I have a right to offer”
“Nothing to do with this thread, that is just a rather weak attempt to justify yourself and this rather nasty thread.
I have stated my opinion,.I'm not going to get drawn further into such a discussion. I have already added a late edit to my earlier post which sums it up:
"As an attempt at character assassination this thread seems to rank with the best. As another Ann hate thread, it's up there with quite a few others. But in my view such nasty threads have no place in this forum, and have no relevance to SCD itself.,"
All in my opinion, and one that I have a right to offer”
I don't quite understand this post. How is it character assassination if it's true? She has voted against gay people having equal rights. That leads me to believe that she thinks of them as less than heterosexual couples. She must if she doesn't think they should have the same rights as them. If someone says something bigoted, people are going to react.
I really don't understand how this can be a 'hate thread' or 'nasty'. It is based on fact, not rumour or supposition and therefore open discussion should be allowed on the subject. Just because it shows her in an unfavourable light doesn't mean it's a hate thread. If you think the subject is appalling then blame Ann, not the OP. She's the one that expresses these views - that is the abhorrent part, not people talking about it
If you would prefer people to sweep it under the rug so you can go on liking her, then I'm afraid that's not the way the world works.
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“This is one disgusting thread launched for yet another personal attack because people vote for her. They homophobic too whatever that means? Further comment would probably earn me a trip to the Gulag.
AW is a Christian with a code based on the bible and lives her life according to that code. If you don't like it tough there is room in the UK for both you and her.”
“This is one disgusting thread launched for yet another personal attack because people vote for her. They homophobic too whatever that means? Further comment would probably earn me a trip to the Gulag.
AW is a Christian with a code based on the bible and lives her life according to that code. If you don't like it tough there is room in the UK for both you and her.”
I really don't understand what's disgusting about this thread
I am genuinely at a loss. Can you please tell me what is disgusting about it? Honestly, I'm not trying to goad you, I want to know what you find disgusting about it
Originally Posted by Vivacious Lady:
“I haven't had much to say about Ann but admit that I'm not sympathetic to most of Ann's expressed politcal views. However to be fair, it isn't always safe to draw broad conclusions from how someone has voted, since there may be all sorts of factors influencing their vote. In particular my guess is that Ann is against an age of consent of 16 years for anyone, irrespective of their sexuality. She may be well be against any teaching of sexual relationships to school children, other than the 'say no' type. Also people can be complicated and sometimes contradictory in their behaviour. (A friend of mine has strict religious views and has interpreted the bible in a particular way meaning she is quite homophobic in theory. Nevertheless she has several gay friends. )
Ann seems to be an uncomplicated person and so the above considerations probably don't apply to her. It's just that if you start looking beyond someone's participation in Strictly and make moral judgements about their right to be there it all gets a bit complicated and heavy although, since Ann's views had influence on legislation, I can see where people are coming from to some extent.
More of a turn off for me is the diminishing number of steps in Ann's routines (as Karen pointed out on ITT) and her confidence that she and Anton are 'hilarious'. However her continued presence isn't a big deal for me. She only takes up a few minutes of the show, and there has been some weird fascination in seeing Anton dancing solo the last few weeks.”
“I haven't had much to say about Ann but admit that I'm not sympathetic to most of Ann's expressed politcal views. However to be fair, it isn't always safe to draw broad conclusions from how someone has voted, since there may be all sorts of factors influencing their vote. In particular my guess is that Ann is against an age of consent of 16 years for anyone, irrespective of their sexuality. She may be well be against any teaching of sexual relationships to school children, other than the 'say no' type. Also people can be complicated and sometimes contradictory in their behaviour. (A friend of mine has strict religious views and has interpreted the bible in a particular way meaning she is quite homophobic in theory. Nevertheless she has several gay friends. )
Ann seems to be an uncomplicated person and so the above considerations probably don't apply to her. It's just that if you start looking beyond someone's participation in Strictly and make moral judgements about their right to be there it all gets a bit complicated and heavy although, since Ann's views had influence on legislation, I can see where people are coming from to some extent.
More of a turn off for me is the diminishing number of steps in Ann's routines (as Karen pointed out on ITT) and her confidence that she and Anton are 'hilarious'. However her continued presence isn't a big deal for me. She only takes up a few minutes of the show, and there has been some weird fascination in seeing Anton dancing solo the last few weeks.”
So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?
It is my view certainly and whats more I absolutely dispprove of the BBc promoting the" lovely Ann" for ratings when she is absolutely not lovely at all .
As someone who has chosen to publicise and influence law making with her views on homosexuals then she should not hide behind the tag of the "lovely Ann" but come out loud and proud as a homophobic woman
Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann" and I for one would be deleighted if she would care to promote her views on SCD , hopefully this would finally get her off my tele once and for all
Originally Posted by shefair:
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?”
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?”
I'm saying that you can't restrict participation in a dance show to those who adhere to some moral code. What code would you apply (it is entirely subjective and variable person by person) and where do you draw the line?
Nevertheless I acknowledge that some people might decide that they do not want to vote for her because they don't like her expressed views. I'm not in the position of having to make that decision since I'm not an admirer of her routines anyway.
Originally Posted by shefair:
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?
It is my view certainly and whats more I absolutely dispprove of the BBc promoting the" lovely Ann" for ratings when she is absolutely not lovely at all .
As someone who has chosen to publicise and influence law making with her views on homosexuals then she should not hide behind the tag of the "lovely Ann" but come out loud and proud as a homophobic woman
Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann" and I for one would be deleighted if she would care to promote her views on SCD , hopefully this would finally get her off my tele once and for all”
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?
It is my view certainly and whats more I absolutely dispprove of the BBc promoting the" lovely Ann" for ratings when she is absolutely not lovely at all .
As someone who has chosen to publicise and influence law making with her views on homosexuals then she should not hide behind the tag of the "lovely Ann" but come out loud and proud as a homophobic woman
Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann" and I for one would be deleighted if she would care to promote her views on SCD , hopefully this would finally get her off my tele once and for all”
Who said she's lovely?
Originally Posted by dome:
“So is any Christian/Catholic that believes the teaching and practices of their religion a homophobe?”
“So is any Christian/Catholic that believes the teaching and practices of their religion a homophobe?”
I don't want to offend you but I'm not a fan of when people hide behind their beliefs or religion when faced with a difficult question. When it comes to theological beliefs, people pick and choose what they want to believe. My boyfriend's family are Catholics but not one of them believes that a talking snake told Eve to go eat an apple. You can be a Catholic and believe that gay people are just the same as heterosexual people, it's just that they fancy their own sex as opposed to the opposite sex. What's the big deal? Just because you're a Catholic does not mean you are against homosexuality. You can be a Catholic and still make up your own mind and I think it's insulting to imply otherwise. Ann Widdecombe is against gay people having equal rights and that is her belief. She can't hide behind the Bible or anything or anyone else.
Originally Posted by shefair:
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?
It is my view certainly and whats more I absolutely dispprove of the BBc promoting the" lovely Ann" for ratings when she is absolutely not lovely at all .
As someone who has chosen to publicise and influence law making with her views on homosexuals then she should not hide behind the tag of the "lovely Ann" but come out loud and proud as a homophobic woman
Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann" and I for one would be deleighted if she would care to promote her views on SCD , hopefully this would finally get her off my tele once and for all”
“So are you saying that morally because of Ann's well publisied views and the undeniable implication that she is homophobic she should not be participating in SCD?
It is my view certainly and whats more I absolutely dispprove of the BBc promoting the" lovely Ann" for ratings when she is absolutely not lovely at all .
As someone who has chosen to publicise and influence law making with her views on homosexuals then she should not hide behind the tag of the "lovely Ann" but come out loud and proud as a homophobic woman
Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann" and I for one would be deleighted if she would care to promote her views on SCD , hopefully this would finally get her off my tele once and for all”
I don't think someone should be banned from TV just because they are homophobic.
Most people who vote for her probably just think that she is amusing to watch on the show. Her backchat to the judges certainly doesn't suggest that she's very nice! I think she comes across as being rude and arrogant, but people don't seem to care about that.
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“This is one disgusting thread”
“This is one disgusting thread”
Well as others have said, we're all entitled to our opinions. If it disgusts you, I suggest simply not reading it.
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“launched for yet another personal attack”
“launched for yet another personal attack”
Once again, a question is not an attack. It's a question.
Seriously, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make that point.
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“They homophobic too whatever that means?”
“They homophobic too whatever that means?”
There's a definition upthread.
But, umm, if you don't know what the word means, how can you comment on whether she is or not?
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“AW is a Christian with a code based on the bible and lives her life according to that code. If you don't like it tough there is room in the UK for both you and her.”
“AW is a Christian with a code based on the bible and lives her life according to that code. If you don't like it tough there is room in the UK for both you and her.”
I'm simply asking the question.
Or is that not allowed now? I assumed that a discussion forum was for, well, discussion...
I get the feeling that a lot of Ann fans feel rather disgusted themselves by her beliefs and are annoyed they've not been allowed to forget them so they can go on enjoying her crap dancing. Am I totally wrong? Or do you agree with her, is that what it is? You just don't want to come out and say it for fear of being labelled? Or do you simply not think it's relevant to Strictly and her presence on it?
Really, I'm not trying to offend or berate, I want to know.
Really, I'm not trying to offend or berate, I want to know.
Of course Ann is homophobic!
She is privately homophobic. She also believes - and has used her position as a politician to attempt to influence legislation - that the state should refuse to grant equal social rights to homosexuals. Considering this is at odds with the rest of her political beliefs - that the state should stay as far out of people's lives as possible - there's no denying her homophobia (and for some, including me, adds hypocrisy into the mix).
Does this mean she shouldn't be on TV? I personally don't think so, what with my believing in free speech an' all. I confess the 'lovely Ann' epithet sticks in my personal craw, however.
I've no objection to Ann being privately homophobic because of her religious beliefs. She can think what she likes. I've every objection to politicians who want the state to conform to their religious beliefs, however, which is one of the reasons I dislike Ann. I've no objection to Ann being on Strictly - her personal beliefs shouldn't preclude her. What they do, however, is preclude my vote from going to her.
She is privately homophobic. She also believes - and has used her position as a politician to attempt to influence legislation - that the state should refuse to grant equal social rights to homosexuals. Considering this is at odds with the rest of her political beliefs - that the state should stay as far out of people's lives as possible - there's no denying her homophobia (and for some, including me, adds hypocrisy into the mix).
Does this mean she shouldn't be on TV? I personally don't think so, what with my believing in free speech an' all. I confess the 'lovely Ann' epithet sticks in my personal craw, however.
I've no objection to Ann being privately homophobic because of her religious beliefs. She can think what she likes. I've every objection to politicians who want the state to conform to their religious beliefs, however, which is one of the reasons I dislike Ann. I've no objection to Ann being on Strictly - her personal beliefs shouldn't preclude her. What they do, however, is preclude my vote from going to her.
Originally Posted by shefair:
“Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann"...”
“Sadly too many people only know her as the "lovely Ann"...”
I'd guess that a lot of people not only know her political views but actively support them. Active acceptance by mainstream society of dislike / distrust of homosexuals has probably been the norm since "way back when". The recent official acceptance of homosexuals by progressive elements (and I mean this in positive context, rather than using "progressive" as an insult) in mainstream society is probably a few decades ahead of broad acceptance by all elements.
As has been observed earlier on this thread, Anne was an MP for 23 years, despite her views being well known and self-promoted, so she's obviously struck a chord with significant numbers of people for a long time.
Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“She is privately homophobic.”
“She is privately homophobic.”
Sorry, but I'm going to be awkward here and ask for some evidence - has she made statements or taken actions to that effect?
Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“She also believes - and has used her position as a politician to attempt to influence legislation - that the state should refuse to grant equal social rights to homosexuals.”
“She also believes - and has used her position as a politician to attempt to influence legislation - that the state should refuse to grant equal social rights to homosexuals.”
Yes, I think that's a reasonable assertion.
Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“Does this mean she shouldn't be on TV? I personally don't think so, what with my believing in free speech an' all.”
“Does this mean she shouldn't be on TV? I personally don't think so, what with my believing in free speech an' all.”
I absolutely believe she should be allowed to express her opinions - in fact, that she should have the right to do so.
I also don't believe that one's personal opinions or actions should necessarily bar one from public life. I mean, blimey, she was an MP and government minister, if you wanted to bar people on the basis of beliefs, I think starting with that'd be better than on a TV show.
Originally Posted by gorlagon:
“. I've no objection to Ann being on Strictly - her personal beliefs shouldn't preclude her. What they do, however, is preclude my vote from going to her.”
“. I've no objection to Ann being on Strictly - her personal beliefs shouldn't preclude her. What they do, however, is preclude my vote from going to her.”
Well, I'll be honest here. If she were the best dancer (and if I voted), then I'd vote for her.
But as she's the Personality Dancer, it seems completely valid for us to examine that personality.
Originally Posted by Mistress:
“Ann's voting record and public pronouncements on the subject are consistent with pretty much every definition of homophobia. She is homophobic, even if her some of her best friends are gay.”
“Ann's voting record and public pronouncements on the subject are consistent with pretty much every definition of homophobia. She is homophobic, even if her some of her best friends are gay.”
"Some of my best friends are gay" is the final nail in the coffin
Also, she is almost certainly a lesbian. That doesn't matter to me, but she is a hypocrite as well as a bigot. To be pitied really.
It is also clearly evident in the fact she sees women being ordained as so terrible, even though she is (technically) a woman. That's worse to me than the bigotry.
Originally Posted by Tangerine_82:
“I get the feeling that a lot of Ann fans feel rather disgusted themselves by her beliefs and are annoyed they've not been allowed to forget them so they can go on enjoying her crap dancing.”
“I get the feeling that a lot of Ann fans feel rather disgusted themselves by her beliefs and are annoyed they've not been allowed to forget them so they can go on enjoying her crap dancing.”
I'd be completely gobsmacked if there are many adults who are fans of Anne's crap dancing whilst simulataneously being strongly opposed to her well-known views, and wresting with these irreconcilable positions on a daily basis before deciding who to vote for each Saturday.
Basically, Ann's relatively passive homophobia isn't a big issue for the masses. If she'd been implicated in beating up homosexuals at chucking out time or nail-bombing "gay bars" then she'd be a lot less popular, I suspect.
Originally Posted by Three Left Feet:
“I'd be completely gobsmacked if there are many adults who are fans of Anne's crap dancing whilst simulataneously being strongly opposed to her well-known views, and wresting with these irreconcilable positions on a daily basis before deciding who to vote for each Saturday.
Basically, Ann's relatively passive homophobia isn't a big issue for the masses. If she'd been implicated in beating up homosexuals at chucking out time or nail-bombing "gay bars" then she'd be a lot less popular, I suspect.”
“I'd be completely gobsmacked if there are many adults who are fans of Anne's crap dancing whilst simulataneously being strongly opposed to her well-known views, and wresting with these irreconcilable positions on a daily basis before deciding who to vote for each Saturday.
Basically, Ann's relatively passive homophobia isn't a big issue for the masses. If she'd been implicated in beating up homosexuals at chucking out time or nail-bombing "gay bars" then she'd be a lot less popular, I suspect.”
voting against equal rights when you are a politician is actually more damaging to society than beating gays up imo. In the long term at least.
Originally Posted by Tangerine_82:
“I get the feeling that a lot of Ann fans feel rather disgusted themselves by her beliefs and are annoyed they've not been allowed to forget them so they can go on enjoying her crap dancing. Am I totally wrong? Or do you agree with her, is that what it is? You just don't want to come out and say it for fear of being labelled? Or do you simply not think it's relevant to Strictly and her presence on it?
Really, I'm not trying to offend or berate, I want to know.”
“I get the feeling that a lot of Ann fans feel rather disgusted themselves by her beliefs and are annoyed they've not been allowed to forget them so they can go on enjoying her crap dancing. Am I totally wrong? Or do you agree with her, is that what it is? You just don't want to come out and say it for fear of being labelled? Or do you simply not think it's relevant to Strictly and her presence on it?
Really, I'm not trying to offend or berate, I want to know.”
I've no idea how Ann's fans feel and neither have you. I wouldn't have thought a detailed check on her past was necessary for most. Being labelled does not concern me one jot. I don't care about things gay why should I be concerned about 6% of the population or whatever it is. I don't care about Moslem's either. What we have constantly is the tail wagging the dog. They are no more special than anyone else. Your last point it has no relevance. People enjoy watching a former upper echelon politician sliding about on her butt. That's the relevant bit
Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?
Originally Posted by Glowbot:
“ voting against equal rights when you are a politician is actually more damaging to society than beating gays up imo. In the long term at least.”
“
voting against equal rights when you are a politician is actually more damaging to society than beating gays up imo. In the long term at least.”
Really?
Would you prefer a society where the homosexual age of consent is 16 and homosexuals can marry but where widespread violence against homosexuals is the norm, or one where violence is minimised by means of education of the masses and robust policing, but where the age of consent is 18 etc?
Originally Posted by Glowbot:
“ voting against equal rights when you are a politician is actually more damaging to society than beating gays up imo. In the long term at least.”
“
voting against equal rights when you are a politician is actually more damaging to society than beating gays up imo. In the long term at least.”
You are way past an acceptable discussion phase where is your evidence.
Originally Posted by Glowbot:
“"Some of my best friends are gay" is the final nail in the coffin
Also, she is almost certainly a lesbian. That doesn't matter to me, but she is a hypocrite as well as a bigot. To be pitied really.
It is also clearly evident in the fact she sees women being ordained as so terrible, even though she is (technically) a woman. That's worse to me than the bigotry.”
“"Some of my best friends are gay" is the final nail in the coffin
Also, she is almost certainly a lesbian. That doesn't matter to me, but she is a hypocrite as well as a bigot. To be pitied really.
It is also clearly evident in the fact she sees women being ordained as so terrible, even though she is (technically) a woman. That's worse to me than the bigotry.”
What are you basing that on? The fact that she's never had sex could mean that she has huge issues with sex or men. It could also just have been her choice. OK, I do think she is repressed, but the fact that she has never had sex with men doesn't mean that she's a lesbian.
Originally Posted by j4Rose:
“What are you basing that on? The fact that she's never had sex could mean that she has huge issues with sex or men. It could also just have been her choice. OK, I do think she is repressed, but the fact that she has never had sex with men doesn't mean that she's a lesbian.”
“What are you basing that on? The fact that she's never had sex could mean that she has huge issues with sex or men. It could also just have been her choice. OK, I do think she is repressed, but the fact that she has never had sex with men doesn't mean that she's a lesbian.”
I agree, It's an unjustified assertion.
Again, I want some evidence for these assertions. Either way.
Originally Posted by DavidJames:
“Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?”
“Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?”
Like I said I don't know what the word means roughly translated it would be a fear of homosexuals. I don't think AW fears anyone.
Originally Posted by bobajot:
“I've no idea how Ann's fans feel and neither have you. I wouldn't have thought a detailed check on her past was necessary for most. Being labelled does not concern me one jot. I don't care about things gay why should I be concerned about 6% of the population or whatever it is. I don't care about Moslem's either. What we have constantly is the tail wagging the dog. They are no more special than anyone else. Your last point it has no relevance. People enjoy watching a former upper echelon politician sliding about on her butt. That's the relevant bit”
“I've no idea how Ann's fans feel and neither have you. I wouldn't have thought a detailed check on her past was necessary for most. Being labelled does not concern me one jot. I don't care about things gay why should I be concerned about 6% of the population or whatever it is. I don't care about Moslem's either. What we have constantly is the tail wagging the dog. They are no more special than anyone else. Your last point it has no relevance. People enjoy watching a former upper echelon politician sliding about on her butt. That's the relevant bit”
BIB1: Yes but conversely they are no LESS special than everyone else and deserve equal treatment...which AW is against.
BIB2: Well that is quite concerning that people are willing to overlook AW's politics and public beliefs because they like seeing her slide about like a sack of potatoes. That does not say much good about 'people'.
Originally Posted by DavidJames:
“Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?”
“Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone posting a "no, she's not homophobic" answer...
Has there been one?”
I think you've maybe hit on something that no-one else has thought of:
People vote for Ann despite knowing she's homophobic. Ergo, homophobia, like an inability to dance, is no handicap to a good run in SCD.
Or alternatively, there are sufficient people in the country motivated to vote for Ann, who are sufficiently stupid/ignorant to be unaware of her views, to get her to this stage of SCD.
I'm not sure which scenario worries me most!
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