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The Ratings Thread (Part 15) |
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#2476 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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I do hope we are not going to find ITV1+1 ratings being automatically incorporated into ITV1's ratings by the original reporting sources or posters on here who put them up.
It is going to cause a right old rumpus if they do.... Whatever happens with the overnights, at least the officials will be separate as it should be, since having two channels showing the same programmes is obviously going to increase reach and make comparisons to channels which are relying on just the one unfair. |
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#2477 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Hm, this shows how inaccurate a picture we get when people post Ch4 incl +1 ratings.
3.1m and 13% share looked decently respectable, 2.67m looks less good. But it's the 2.67m one that's correct. I do hope we are not going to find ITV1+1 ratings being automatically incorporated into ITV1's ratings by the original reporting sources or posters on here who put them up. It is going to cause a right old rumpus if they do.... Quote:
Normally, when the large lists are posted on Tuesdays and Thursdays the number includes +1, but the percentage share excludes +1, so it is possible to work out the audience excluding +1 if there's a show on in the exact same slot.
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Problem is that some sources include them and some don't. Although as I've pointed out before, under the VOSDAL rule overnights include people who recorded a programme and watched it back by 2am, so surely a +1 channel is just another form of same day timeshifting and therefore should be included. I'd say the same for any channel that's launching a +1 service, not just because it's ITV (I've always said +1 should be lumped in with C4). ITV and C4 will certainly include them as +1 channels will show exactly the same ads so the number of viewers advertisers pay for will include +1.
At a push perhaps +1 shouldn't be included when comparing with other channels in the same slot (but it's a grey area) but I certainly think it should be included when looking at things such as series averages and % viewing shares. |
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#2478 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Problem is that some sources include them and some don't. Although as I've pointed out before, under the VOSDAL rule overnights include people who recorded a programme and watched it back by 2am, so surely a +1 channel is just another form of same day timeshifting and therefore should be included. I'd say the same for any channel that's launching a +1 service, not just because it's ITV (I've always said +1 should be lumped in with C4). ITV and C4 will certainly include them as +1 channels will show exactly the same ads so the number of viewers advertisers pay for will include +1
Watching +1 channels may capture a number of viewers who do legitimately decide not to watch live on the main channel but catch it an hour later on the +1 - genuine "timeshifting". But I suspect the overwhelming majority of +1 viewing captures people who are flicking around and just happen to catch something later. Fact is, if you watch Ch4+1 or ITV+1, you are watching programmes on a separate channel. So the ratings should be reported for that channel separately. If ratings sources just lump them together and that's all we get on here, then the value of this thread nosedives, and we will have to wait for official ratings reports coming out to get a proper picture. Obviously, the official reports will separate out main channels and catch-up channels correctly. Quote:
Not meaning to be disrespectful here, but generally ITV is very popular among posters here, so I can't see any data set that underrepresents audiences for ITV1 programmes becoming commonplace, can you?
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#2479 |
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What does Trevor Eve have against Doctor Who and Top Gear? He's even appeared on Top Gear so why is he moaning about it.
Mind you, ITV are keeping him busy as well with Bouquet of Barbed Wire last year and soon Kidnap and Ransom. |
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#2480 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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As much as I hate to agree with you...
Seriously? Crikey... ![]() Quote:
I wish BARB would just bundle all the figures together now, would be much easier. For example: the ITV1 Top 30 would include; SD showing's, HD showing's and whenever it launches, +1 showing's.
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#2481 |
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See, I know you wanted to say 'shorter', but my mind read 'shirter' as something totally different.
![]() I can imagine what you were thinking! My typing just gets worse when I'm on the laptop. I blame the keys.
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#2482 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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"Hate"?
Seriously? Crikey... ![]() |
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#2483 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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On the plus one issue - I don't mind how it's presented as long as it's uniform. It'd be stupid to have Channel 4's ratings as 'X and X on +1' but have ITV's ratings amalgamated, for example.
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#2484 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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It seems likely to me that the figures we will get will be modified in ITV1's favour if at all possible, so including +1. Not meaning to be disrespectful here, but generally ITV is very popular among posters here, so I can't see any data set that underrepresents audiences for ITV1 programmes becoming commonplace, can you?
Whatever happens with the overnights, at least the officials will be separate as it should be, since having two channels showing the same programmes is obviously going to increase reach and make comparisons to channels which are relying on just the one unfair. For calculating series averages of programmes, I don't think there's anything wrong with adding the +1 figure in because it is a form of timeshift. Take last night for example: if ITV1+1 was in place, I suspect Silent Witness would've had a higher audience due to some Above Suspicion viewers deciding to not watch at 9pm (instead opting for SW) but then catching the 10pm showing. So BBC1's 9pm rating would've been higher, ITV1's 9pm rating would've been lower, but the +1 rating makes up the difference to how it would've been like yesterday. Should those 10pm viewers who deliberately chose not to watch the 9pm showing due to a +1 option being available to them be ignored? What ITV1+1 will do is help boost BBC1's ratings (due to 'fringe' viewers choosing their programmes over ITV's) but if you don't acknowledge the +1 audiences that ITV1 are getting, then the gap between BBC1 and ITV1 will seem bigger than it actually is. I don't buy the "having two channels showing the same programmes is obviously going to increase reach" argument - Just look at Channel 4's ratings to see that +1 hasn't boosted its ratings to a higher level which it wouldn't have been at without +1. It's no co-incidence that in the first full year that C4+1 was airing, the linear C4 channel experienced its biggest year-on-year annual share fall in years. That's because viewers had the option to watch on C4+1 and some people started using that as a 'default' C4 channel instead of the main linear C4 channel, which in turn accelerated the linear C4 decline but with +1 factored in, the overall decline was similar to the previous years and in line with the trend. I wish ITV would sort out their SD/HD ratings and not even launch +1 as it's going to cause a lot of problems on this thread. Quote:
How did ITV manage to lose that, with an 11m Coro lead in?
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#2485 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Robbie, why will the inclusion of +1 ratings lower the value of the thread?
Most comment is on the lines of "Ouch for Primeval getting only 3m, this show looks like it is on it's way out" Would you really want that line of thought to continue when the show could have got 2m on ignored ITV1+1 The value of overnights is already in question when you are comparing BBC & commercial full slots, when the latter contains significantly less minutes of actual programme, but that doesn't seem to bother you, unsurprisingly. |
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#2486 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Waking The Dead series 9 DVD is out on March 14th 2011. That suggests the new series is going to start airing in February. I wouldn't be surprised to see it take over the Silent Witness slots once that finishes.
Also new BBC1 dramas, South Riding and Silk, have their DVDs out on February 14th and March 21st 2011. So it's likely South Riding will take the Sunday 9pm slot after Zen finishes and I wouldn't be surprised to see Silk on Sundays at 9pm once South Riding is over. Note, the DVD release dates are subject to change so they might been shown at a completely different time of the year, but at the moment the above seems likely. I mentioned last week about South Riding, it is due on the 23rd. A preview screening is being held in Bradford in a week and a bit's time. Feb 13th is Bafta Film night so that needs to be clear at 9pm. Your Silk date is different from that the BBC have. They have it out on the 28th but i think that to be unlikely and it's not really Sunday night stuff. I'd suggest Mondays in the run up to Easter are more likely. as for Outcasts, Fridays, but I have a very bad feeling about this now, it just doesn't seem very cheery viewing. Certainly, a totally different kettle of fish from Kudos's other work. Usual caveats apply... |
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#2487 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wales
Posts: 537
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Problem is that some sources include them and some don't. Although as I've pointed out before, under the VOSDAL rule overnights include people who recorded a programme and watched it back by 2am, so surely a +1 channel is just another form of same day timeshifting and therefore should be included. I'd say the same for any channel that's launching a +1 service, not just because it's ITV (I've always said +1 should be lumped in with C4). ITV and C4 will certainly include them as +1 channels will show exactly the same ads so the number of viewers advertisers pay for will include +1.
At a push perhaps +1 shouldn't be included when comparing with other channels in the same slot (but it's a grey area) but I certainly think it should be included when looking at things such as series averages and % viewing shares. For example, one person could record Hollyoaks at 6pm and watch it back at 7pm, whereas another viewer could watch the same episode at the same time of 7pm on Channel 4+1. One would be included in the rate but the other excluded, which makes no sense. But yeah I'd rather they just didn't launch ITV1+1 because it just fragments viewing figures even further. |
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#2488 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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On the subject of the official, proper, ratings, I've been analysing the Christmas (so far) ratings and there really are some exceptional figures which deserve posting up on the thread as I don't think any of the following have been particularly flagged on here - I know we all get excited about the daily overnights, but these numbers are the gold standard of ratings, the ones that really count.
SPORTS PERSONALITY 7.12m - thrilled for it to clear 7m THE APPRENTICE/YOU'RE HIRED TWO HOUR COMBO - 8.67m (9.07-11.07pm!) - must have been close to 10m for the main show? Stupid BBC1 for not allowing BARB to report a potential 10m audience for them! ROYAL VARIETY PERFORMANCE 8.90m - brilliant against an ITV soap block; would surely have been 9.5m and an entry in the Top 20 of 2010 had it aired the following Wednesday THE IMPRESSIONS SHOW (repeat) 5.79m - must be one of the highest repeat audiences of 2010; probably 2-3 times the audience of the first showing (Actually - THE GRUFFALO got 6.24m for its Christmas Day repeat) MIRANDA 4.82m - wow, just massive for a BBC2 sitcom! She got 6.68m if you include the late night repeat. Nearly 7m! Get it on BBC1! TOP GEAR (series) 7.13m - dumped on a Tuesday night opposite Holby; many assumed it was a repeat and didn't watch. Sensational rating! (It got 9.23m including the repeat!) TOP GEAR MIDDLE EAST SPECIAL 7.68m - opposite EastEnders with 9.1m and overlapping with Upstairs Downstairs and Benidorm, two ratings hits. To say folk were writing TG off as past-it and the slide, for it to get two big 7m+ audiences in the same week shows there is life in the old dog yet UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS 8.85m - above expectations considering it was up against two 7m+ rated shows on BBC2 and ITV1, and on traditionally low-rating Boxing Day night. Great for it to come so agonisingly close to the 9m mark EASTENDERS - all 4 regular eps 20-24 December cleared 10m in the officials, including a hefty 11.42m on the Monday. Plus 12.6m on Christmas Day and a very respectable Boxing Day bonus ep rating of 9.11m against Top Gear's 7.7m! SHREK THE THIRD and SHREK THE HALLS - Shrek III getting 7.8m at 3.10pm in the afternoon; well up on previous efforts in that slot; would defo have got 9m+ in a teatime/early evening slot. Meanwhile, STH getting 5.74m for its now traditional annual repeat. Will STH's ratings ever decline?! ![]() THE NATIVITY 5.77m and 5.70m (presumably the other 2 were 5m+ too). Mega ratings for a minority viewing slot filler, up against an ITV soap. The top 9 entries in the w/e 26/12 BBC1 Top 30 all got 10m+ figures. The next 3 were around the 9m mark too. It's a shame BARB don't give us a Top 40/50 for the Christmas weeks, because you just know there are so many other ratings buried further down that would cause a few s but we never get to see them.BENIDORM 7.41m - didn't deserve it based on its quality/clapped-out nature, but that is one sensational rating considering what it was up against. Endlessly promoted of course, but definitely one of the stand-out ratings this Christmas. As well as BBC1 has done this Christmas, it's BBC2 who will be popping the champagne corks I think. Three separate 7m or more ratings over the holidays (assuming Eric & Ern gets to 7m), Miranda just short of 7m with the repeat, and loads of stuff in the 3-4m range, including golden oldies. ITV1 hasn't, by any stretch, had a disaster - helped by some positive schedules on its part, even if they did collapse in places. |
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#2489 |
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I don't think we're all ever going to agree on the +1 issue! I'm honestly not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely see it differently.
I'd agree that for series averages for programmes I largely don't have a problem with that. But for the overnight reports comparing channel x with a +1 to channel y without a +1 I do have a problem with that as it's 2 v 1. As for Silent Witness v Above Suspicion last night, it's an interesting example. Whilst you are almost certainly right that SW would have rated better and the gap would have been wider minus +1, I do think AS would have recorded a bigger total audience if the +1 had been available as it would give viewers who were not pushed enough to record it an extra opportunity in the quiet 10pm hour. It would pick up casuals as well as viewers that were occupied by other channels at 9pm or had something else recording. |
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#2490 |
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Robbie, why will the inclusion of +1 ratings lower the value of the thread?
Most comment is on the lines of "Ouch for Primeval getting only 3m, this show looks like it is on it's way out" Would you really want that line of thought to continue when the show could have got 2m on ignored ITV1+1 Quote:
For calculating series averages of programmes, I don't think there's anything wrong with adding the +1 figure in because it is a form of timeshift. Take last night for example: if ITV1+1 was in place, I suspect Silent Witness would've had a higher audience due to some Above Suspicion viewers deciding to not watch at 9pm (instead opting for SW) but then catching the 10pm showing.
Should those 10pm viewers who deliberately chose not to watch the 9pm showing due to a +1 option being available to them be ignored? Quote:
Exactly!
For example, one person could record Hollyoaks at 6pm and watch it back at 7pm, whereas another viewer could watch the same episode at the same time of 7pm on Channel 4+1. One would be included in the rate but the other excluded, which makes no sense. If not - isn't that a double standard?
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#2491 |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Any chance you could answer my question from earlier Robbie? The one about why you love everything that is on BBC1 so much and seem to hate everything that is on ITV so much?
For me, if a programme is great, then I dont really care what channel it is on. I don't love Law and Order UK any more than I love Spooks just because of different channels. Was hoping you could explain for me. |
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#2492 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I've always considered +1 for C4 or digital channels as part of the totals so I'd keep with that for ITV1. There's no point penalising a channel for providing an extra service to viewers. The overnights are already "tainted" by tape checking, dipping in and out of ads, regional variations and same day timeshifting which makes it difficult to make definitive comparisons between BBC1 and ITV1 in the same slot. This is just one more thing for us to factor in just as BBC3's Eastenders repeats are so often reported and commented on.
PS: In the days when X Factor lost to Strictly, I used to like counting the ITV2 repeats but nobody ever listened!
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#2493 |
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Any chance you could answer my question from earlier Robbie? The one about why you love everything that is on BBC1 so much and seem to hate everything that is on ITV so much?
For me, if a programme is great, then I dont really care what channel it is on. I don't love Law and Order UK any more than I love Spooks just because of different channels. Was hoping you could explain for me. ![]() I'm off to bed! |
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#2494 |
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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Can I just repeat that around 65% of households in the last reckoning of PVRs don't have one including mine, so if people are watching in digital they don't have the option of watching one channel and recording another.
At 9 o'clock last night I was watching the Pixar doc on BBC3. I have to watch this via Sky. I also wanted to watch Never Mind the Buzzcocks and The Big Fat Quiz of the Year. Because C4 have a +1 option I was able to watch all three. Now I'd say that the only difference between me and some watching it on a PVR is that I can't fastforward through the adverts. |
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#2495 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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But for the overnight reports comparing channel x with a +1 to channel y without a +1 I do have a problem with that as it's 2 v 1.
As for Silent Witness v Above Suspicion last night, it's an interesting example. Whilst you are almost certainly right that SW would have rated better and the gap would have been wider minus +1, I do think AS would have recorded a bigger total audience if the +1 had been available as it's would give viewers who were not pushed enough to record it an extra opportunity in the quiet 10pm hour. It would pick up casuals as well as viewers that were occupied by other channels at 9pm or had something else recording. We might even get to a stage where ITV1 repeats its peaktime line up after 10.30pm every night so it can further falsify its overnight ratings upwards... Quote:
I've always considered +1 for C4 or digital channels as part of the totals so I'd keep with that for ITV1. There's no point penalising a channel for providing an extra service to viewers.
Cheating. |
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#2496 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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My last word on the subject before I do turn in - if I watched Above Suspicion at 9pm on ITV1 and then watched it again (for whatever reason) at 10pm on ITV1+1, is it right that I get counted twice in its overnight ratings?
At the moment, if I watch a repeat showing on another channel the same night I get counted in both channel's figures and we draw our own conclusions on whether people watched twice - but at least the integrity of the figures isn't compromised. Same if I watch live and then re-watch a recording - BARB would I believe only count me once. Lumping in +1 figures doesn't have this safeguard. They should be reported separately if at all possible. |
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#2497 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 117,021
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I don't think we're all ever going to agree on the +1 issue! I'm honestly not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely see it differently.
I'd agree that for series averages for programmes I largely don't have a problem with that. But for the overnight reports comparing channel x with a +1 to channel y without a +1 I do have a problem with that as it's 2 v 1. As for Silent Witness v Above Suspicion last night, it's an interesting example. Whilst you are almost certainly right that SW would have rated better and the gap would have been wider minus +1, I do think AS would have recorded a bigger total audience if the +1 had been available as it would give viewers who were not pushed enough to record it an extra opportunity in the quiet 10pm hour. It would pick up casuals as well as viewers that were occupied by other channels at 9pm or had something else recording. |
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#2498 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Spot on. It puts the BBC at an immediate disadvantage because they don't have +1s and probably never will. (This is one reason why ITV are doing it presumably). When the ITVistas on here are trumpeting a particular ITV1 show's victory over a BBC1 offering, I suspect they won't give a fig about the integrity of the figures and what the actual base BBC1 v ITV1 figures were.
We might even get to a stage where ITV1 repeats its peaktime line up after 10.30pm every night so it can further falsify its overnight ratings upwards... But see Dancc's spot on comments above. It's false accounting. Cheating.
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#2499 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I think it makes sense to report them separately, so as we have the information, but consider them together - if that makes sense? Whatever happens, making straight comparisons will be more difficult. Discounting ITV1+1 is clearly going to disadvantage it in comparisons with other channels. But including it will give it an advantage. As Fudd says "X beat Y" doesn't really matter. And we'll just have to accept that the overnights aren't entirely conclusive in comparing same slot ratings.
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#2500 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Can I just repeat that around 65% of households in the last reckoning of PVRs don't have one including mine, so if people are watching in digital they don't have the option of watching one channel and recording another.
At 9 o'clock last night I was watching the Pixar doc on BBC3. I have to watch this via Sky. I also wanted to watch Never Mind the Buzzcocks and The Big Fat Quiz of the Year. Because C4 have a +1 option I was able to watch all three. Now I'd say that the only difference between me and some watching it on a PVR is that I can't fastforward through the adverts. It's not about penalising the channels which offer a +1, they reap the benefits anyway through increased ad revenues etc and will no doubt interpret the data the way that suits them, it's about not penalising the channels which don't by fiddling the data in favour of those that do. |
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I can imagine what you were thinking! My typing just gets worse when I'm on the laptop. I blame the keys.
