It seems likely to me that the figures we will get will be modified in ITV1's favour if at all possible, so including +1. Not meaning to be disrespectful here, but generally ITV is very popular among posters here, so I can't see any data set that underrepresents audiences for ITV1 programmes becoming commonplace, can you?

Whatever happens with the overnights, at least the officials will be separate as it should be, since having two channels showing the same programmes is obviously going to increase reach and make comparisons to channels which are relying on just the one unfair.

As much as I hate to agree with you, I do agree on this matter. I don't want to see "ITV1 inc.HD, +1" as the heading for ratings whenever the +1 service comes into force?!


I've always wondered this...why do we get the large lists for Monday and Wednesday ratings? Also is it possible to have the +1 figure seperate? Will be a pain if not, cos trying to work out the average overnight audience for Corrie for example will prove very difficult indeed. Damn, when did ratings become so complicated!


Totally agree about it been a grey area, but BARB report is separately too. I wish BARB would just bundle all the figures together now, would be much easier. For example: the ITV1 Top 30 would include; SD showing's, HD showing's and whenever it launches, +1 showing's. More chance of hell freezing over though i'm guessing!

Totally disagree. "Timeshifting" involves viewers consciously recording a show and then watching it back. If they watch it back the same night, it is included in the overnights. Within 7 days, and it is included in the officials.

Watching +1 channels may capture a number of viewers who do legitimately decide not to watch live on the main channel but catch it an hour later on the +1 - genuine "timeshifting". But I suspect the overwhelming majority of +1 viewing captures people who are flicking around and just happen to catch something later.

Fact is, if you watch Ch4+1 or ITV+1, you are watching programmes on a separate channel. So the ratings should be reported for that channel separately.

If ratings sources just lump them together and that's all we get on here, then the value of this thread nosedives, and we will have to wait for official ratings reports coming out to get a proper picture. Obviously, the official reports will separate out main channels and catch-up channels correctly.


That's what concerns me...

Bit of a mystery really why he keeps mouthing off in this way about the BBC and its programmes. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Mind you, ITV are keeping him busy as well with Bouquet of Barbed Wire last year and soon Kidnap and Ransom.

"Hate"?

Seriously?

Crikey...


Maybe add an extra 10% as well, just to cover people who meant to watch a particular ITV1 show but didn't get home in time, or forgot, or were watching BBC1 instead....

I can imagine what you were thinking! My typing just gets worse when I'm on the laptop. I blame the keys.

Well, hate is a strong word, let's say, as much as i don't want to agree with you then...

On the plus one issue - I don't mind how it's presented as long as it's uniform. It'd be stupid to have Channel 4's ratings as 'X and X on +1' but have ITV's ratings amalgamated, for example.

Some sources automatically lump in the +1 ratings with the main rating so when posting the long lists in the morning sometimes, we can't do anything about it until a later source says what the separate figures were. (Incidentally these sources which automatically lump in the +1 ratings for C4 include the BBC's own ratings service, 'Pulse' - which is where the long Tuesday/Thursday lists are from).

For calculating series averages of programmes, I don't think there's anything wrong with adding the +1 figure in because it is a form of timeshift. Take last night for example: if ITV1+1 was in place, I suspect Silent Witness would've had a higher audience due to some Above Suspicion viewers deciding to not watch at 9pm (instead opting for SW) but then catching the 10pm showing.

So BBC1's 9pm rating would've been higher, ITV1's 9pm rating would've been lower, but the +1 rating makes up the difference to how it would've been like yesterday. Should those 10pm viewers who deliberately chose not to watch the 9pm showing due to a +1 option being available to them be ignored?

What ITV1+1 will do is help boost BBC1's ratings (due to 'fringe' viewers choosing their programmes over ITV's) but if you don't acknowledge the +1 audiences that ITV1 are getting, then the gap between BBC1 and ITV1 will seem bigger than it actually is.

I don't buy the "having two channels showing the same programmes is obviously going to increase reach" argument - Just look at Channel 4's ratings to see that +1 hasn't boosted its ratings to a higher level which it wouldn't have been at without +1. It's no co-incidence that in the first full year that C4+1 was airing, the linear C4 channel experienced its biggest year-on-year annual share fall in years. That's because viewers had the option to watch on C4+1 and some people started using that as a 'default' C4 channel instead of the main linear C4 channel, which in turn accelerated the linear C4 decline but with +1 factored in, the overall decline was similar to the previous years and in line with the trend.

I wish ITV would sort out their SD/HD ratings and not even launch +1 as it's going to cause a lot of problems on this thread.


I was expecting Above Suspicion to be beaten because Silent Witness is the more established drama which has run for years and has built up a larger fanbase. In the same week last year, SW's first episode had 7.3m while AS's had 6.7m so it seems like SW has the larger potential audience. Worth noting too that Corrie finishes at 8.55pm so the direct lead-in for AS was "only" 6.7m (exc. HD) not 11m.

Robbie, why will the inclusion of +1 ratings lower the value of the thread?

Most comment is on the lines of "Ouch for Primeval getting only 3m, this show looks like it is on it's way out"

Would you really want that line of thought to continue when the show could have got 2m on ignored ITV1+1

The value of overnights is already in question when you are comparing BBC & commercial full slots, when the latter contains significantly less minutes of actual programme, but that doesn't seem to bother you, unsurprisingly.

The BBC1 announcer gave the game away last night by introducing "a winter of Mon/Tue two parters, starting with Silent Witness" Yes, you can expect Boyd to start shouting at people again from February 14th, after another 4 new SW's and a repeat of one of last years...

I mentioned last week about South Riding, it is due on the 23rd. A preview screening is being held in Bradford in a week and a bit's time. Feb 13th is Bafta Film night so that needs to be clear at 9pm.

Your Silk date is different from that the BBC have. They have it out on the 28th but i think that to be unlikely and it's not really Sunday night stuff. I'd suggest Mondays in the run up to Easter are more likely.

as for Outcasts, Fridays, but I have a very bad feeling about this now, it just doesn't seem very cheery viewing. Certainly, a totally different kettle of fish from Kudos's other work.

Usual caveats apply...

Exactly!

For example, one person could record Hollyoaks at 6pm and watch it back at 7pm, whereas another viewer could watch the same episode at the same time of 7pm on Channel 4+1.

One would be included in the rate but the other excluded, which makes no sense.

But yeah I'd rather they just didn't launch ITV1+1 because it just fragments viewing figures even further.

On the subject of the official, proper, ratings, I've been analysing the Christmas (so far) ratings and there really are some exceptional figures which deserve posting up on the thread as I don't think any of the following have been particularly flagged on here - I know we all get excited about the daily overnights, but these numbers are the gold standard of ratings, the ones that really count.

SPORTS PERSONALITY 7.12m - thrilled for it to clear 7m

THE APPRENTICE/YOU'RE HIRED TWO HOUR COMBO - 8.67m (9.07-11.07pm!) - must have been close to 10m for the main show? Stupid BBC1 for not allowing BARB to report a potential 10m audience for them!

ROYAL VARIETY PERFORMANCE 8.90m - brilliant against an ITV soap block; would surely have been 9.5m and an entry in the Top 20 of 2010 had it aired the following Wednesday

THE IMPRESSIONS SHOW (repeat) 5.79m - must be one of the highest repeat audiences of 2010; probably 2-3 times the audience of the first showing

(Actually - THE GRUFFALO got 6.24m for its Christmas Day repeat)

MIRANDA 4.82m - wow, just massive for a BBC2 sitcom! She got 6.68m if you include the late night repeat. Nearly 7m! Get it on BBC1!

TOP GEAR (series) 7.13m - dumped on a Tuesday night opposite Holby; many assumed it was a repeat and didn't watch. Sensational rating! (It got 9.23m including the repeat!)

TOP GEAR MIDDLE EAST SPECIAL 7.68m - opposite EastEnders with 9.1m and overlapping with Upstairs Downstairs and Benidorm, two ratings hits. To say folk were writing TG off as past-it and the slide, for it to get two big 7m+ audiences in the same week shows there is life in the old dog yet

UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS 8.85m - above expectations considering it was up against two 7m+ rated shows on BBC2 and ITV1, and on traditionally low-rating Boxing Day night. Great for it to come so agonisingly close to the 9m mark

EASTENDERS - all 4 regular eps 20-24 December cleared 10m in the officials, including a hefty 11.42m on the Monday. Plus 12.6m on Christmas Day and a very respectable Boxing Day bonus ep rating of 9.11m against Top Gear's 7.7m!

SHREK THE THIRD and SHREK THE HALLS - Shrek III getting 7.8m at 3.10pm in the afternoon; well up on previous efforts in that slot; would defo have got 9m+ in a teatime/early evening slot. Meanwhile, STH getting 5.74m for its now traditional annual repeat. Will STH's ratings ever decline?!

THE NATIVITY 5.77m and 5.70m (presumably the other 2 were 5m+ too). Mega ratings for a minority viewing slot filler, up against an ITV soap.

The top 9 entries in the w/e 26/12 BBC1 Top 30 all got 10m+ figures. The next 3 were around the 9m mark too. It's a shame BARB don't give us a Top 40/50 for the Christmas weeks, because you just know there are so many other ratings buried further down that would cause a few s but we never get to see them.

BENIDORM 7.41m - didn't deserve it based on its quality/clapped-out nature, but that is one sensational rating considering what it was up against. Endlessly promoted of course, but definitely one of the stand-out ratings this Christmas.

As well as BBC1 has done this Christmas, it's BBC2 who will be popping the champagne corks I think. Three separate 7m or more ratings over the holidays (assuming Eric & Ern gets to 7m), Miranda just short of 7m with the repeat, and loads of stuff in the 3-4m range, including golden oldies.

ITV1 hasn't, by any stretch, had a disaster - helped by some positive schedules on its part, even if they did collapse in places.

I don't think we're all ever going to agree on the +1 issue! I'm honestly not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely see it differently.

I'd agree that for series averages for programmes I largely don't have a problem with that. But for the overnight reports comparing channel x with a +1 to channel y without a +1 I do have a problem with that as it's 2 v 1.

As for Silent Witness v Above Suspicion last night, it's an interesting example. Whilst you are almost certainly right that SW would have rated better and the gap would have been wider minus +1, I do think AS would have recorded a bigger total audience if the +1 had been available as it would give viewers who were not pushed enough to record it an extra opportunity in the quiet 10pm hour. It would pick up casuals as well as viewers that were occupied by other channels at 9pm or had something else recording.

rzt - on the basis of these comments, please will you ensure that when you report EastEnders' ratings on this thread, you automatically include those who chose to timeshift by watching the 10pm repeat?

If not - isn't that a double standard?

Any chance you could answer my question from earlier Robbie? The one about why you love everything that is on BBC1 so much and seem to hate everything that is on ITV so much?

For me, if a programme is great, then I dont really care what channel it is on. I don't love Law and Order UK any more than I love Spooks just because of different channels. Was hoping you could explain for me.

I've always considered +1 for C4 or digital channels as part of the totals so I'd keep with that for ITV1. There's no point penalising a channel for providing an extra service to viewers. The overnights are already "tainted" by tape checking, dipping in and out of ads, regional variations and same day timeshifting which makes it difficult to make definitive comparisons between BBC1 and ITV1 in the same slot. This is just one more thing for us to factor in just as BBC3's Eastenders repeats are so often reported and commented on.

PS: In the days when X Factor lost to Strictly, I used to like counting the ITV2 repeats but nobody ever listened!

Jesus wept...

I'm off to bed!

Can I just repeat that around 65% of households in the last reckoning of PVRs don't have one including mine, so if people are watching in digital they don't have the option of watching one channel and recording another.

At 9 o'clock last night I was watching the Pixar doc on BBC3. I have to watch this via Sky. I also wanted to watch Never Mind the Buzzcocks and The Big Fat Quiz of the Year. Because C4 have a +1 option I was able to watch all three. Now I'd say that the only difference between me and some watching it on a PVR is that I can't fastforward through the adverts.

Spot on. It puts the BBC at an immediate disadvantage because they don't have +1s and probably never will. (This is one reason why ITV are doing it presumably). When the ITVistas on here are trumpeting a particular ITV1 show's victory over a BBC1 offering, I suspect they won't give a fig about the integrity of the figures and what the actual base BBC1 v ITV1 figures were.

We might even get to a stage where ITV1 repeats its peaktime line up after 10.30pm every night so it can further falsify its overnight ratings upwards...


But see Dancc's spot on comments above. It's false accounting.

Cheating.

My last word on the subject before I do turn in - if I watched Above Suspicion at 9pm on ITV1 and then watched it again (for whatever reason) at 10pm on ITV1+1, is it right that I get counted twice in its overnight ratings?

At the moment, if I watch a repeat showing on another channel the same night I get counted in both channel's figures and we draw our own conclusions on whether people watched twice - but at least the integrity of the figures isn't compromised. Same if I watch live and then re-watch a recording - BARB would I believe only count me once.

Lumping in +1 figures doesn't have this safeguard. They should be reported separately if at all possible.

The thing to remember is broadcasters are actually not as obsessed as beating each other as some appear to be on the forum. ITV1 are not exactly creaming themselves over defeating BBC1 and vice versa. They just want to claim good ratings for their shows. While plus one on here may cause massive debate (which is strange because numerous channels have had plus one for ages without too much argument yet as soon as ITV1 get it...) ITV1 just want to attract as many viewers to their offerings as possible to raise advertising funds, and that's all there is to it. I'd present it exactly the same way as other +1 offerings are currently presented personally but I think it's a case of 'mountain out of molehill'.

Cheating? Dear me, Robbie, it's a bunch of TV ratings, not fixing a General Election.

I think it makes sense to report them separately, so as we have the information, but consider them together - if that makes sense? Whatever happens, making straight comparisons will be more difficult. Discounting ITV1+1 is clearly going to disadvantage it in comparisons with other channels. But including it will give it an advantage. As Fudd says "X beat Y" doesn't really matter. And we'll just have to accept that the overnights aren't entirely conclusive in comparing same slot ratings.

You are right there. But the point is, you wouldn't have watched those programmes otherwise. Not because you didn't want to, but you simply wouldn't have been able. You only watched because the +1 service was available, which I'm sure you're not alone in doing. So why should you be counted along with those that actively sought out the content on first run? It's basically the same as adding in the ratings for a repeat.

It's not about penalising the channels which offer a +1, they reap the benefits anyway through increased ad revenues etc and will no doubt interpret the data the way that suits them, it's about not penalising the channels which don't by fiddling the data in favour of those that do.