I am thinking of breeding my dog with a bitch and am meeting up with the owner of the bitch next week. As she will obviously be doing all the hard work, where do I stand with being the owner of the dog, what would I be expected to do, etc?
Dog Breeding
You would be expected to have completed all the relevant health tests for your breed and proven that it is an exceptional example of the breed either through showing or working (depending on breed). And obviously you will want to see evidence that the bitch has also had the breed specific tests.
You would be as responsible as the bitches owner for ensuring that your dog compliments her bitch. It may be that they both share the same fault, so she may wish to look further afield for a more suitable stud.
You will need to sign the KC paperwork.
Morally, you would be responsible equally for any unsold pups - though you should have a list of people interested in offspring from your dog if he is such a great example of the breed that he is suitable breeding material.
You would never put a maiden bitch with an unproven stud, so the bitches owner will have been through this before and should be able to help. Techniques for putting two dogs together vary depending on breed and individual dogs. As I'm sure you already know, the bitch normally travels to the stud (not always) and there are usually two matings.
Contractually, you should have a written contract detailing payment and what happens in the even the bitch does not conceive especially as your dog is unproven. Repeat mating at next season is common, though a refund of stud fee may be appropriate.
Out of interest, what breed is it? There are some breeds I wouldn't recommend breeding in the current climate unless they are last of a bloodline that you strongly want to preserve or absolutely exceptional dogs.
You would be as responsible as the bitches owner for ensuring that your dog compliments her bitch. It may be that they both share the same fault, so she may wish to look further afield for a more suitable stud.
You will need to sign the KC paperwork.
Morally, you would be responsible equally for any unsold pups - though you should have a list of people interested in offspring from your dog if he is such a great example of the breed that he is suitable breeding material.
You would never put a maiden bitch with an unproven stud, so the bitches owner will have been through this before and should be able to help. Techniques for putting two dogs together vary depending on breed and individual dogs. As I'm sure you already know, the bitch normally travels to the stud (not always) and there are usually two matings.
Contractually, you should have a written contract detailing payment and what happens in the even the bitch does not conceive especially as your dog is unproven. Repeat mating at next season is common, though a refund of stud fee may be appropriate.
Out of interest, what breed is it? There are some breeds I wouldn't recommend breeding in the current climate unless they are last of a bloodline that you strongly want to preserve or absolutely exceptional dogs.
Why would anyone want to use a stud dog that hasn't won shedloads of CCs? I don't get it. And if the dog is a prizewinner - then you'd be in 'doggy' circles and presumably have plenty of people to ask how to proceed?
Sounds like backstreet breeding to me.
Sounds like backstreet breeding to me.
Originally Posted by Hogzilla:
“Why would anyone want to use a stud dog that hasn't won shedloads of CCs? I don't get it. And if the dog is a prizewinner - then you'd be in 'doggy' circles and presumably have plenty of people to ask how to proceed?
Sounds like backstreet breeding to me.”
“Why would anyone want to use a stud dog that hasn't won shedloads of CCs? I don't get it. And if the dog is a prizewinner - then you'd be in 'doggy' circles and presumably have plenty of people to ask how to proceed?
Sounds like backstreet breeding to me.”
Maybe the puppies are just wanted as pets and don't need shedloads of CCs, Dog breeders are sometimes nothing more than puppy farms out for a fast buck.To assume someone who want's to let their pet have a litter of pups is a backstreet breeder and is doing something morally wrong is over the top, as long as they do health checks and work along with a vet i don't see a problem to be honest
What breed of dog is it? there are a few breeds that are seen as fighting dogs etc that for obvious reasons should be left in the hands of proffesionals
Originally Posted by max25:
“Maybe the puppies are just wanted as pets and don't need shedloads of CCs, Dog breeders are sometimes nothing more than puppy farms out for a fast buck.To assume someone who want's to let their pet have a litter of pups is a backstreet breeder and is doing something morally wrong is over the top, as long as they do health checks and work along with a vet i don't see a problem to be honest”
“Maybe the puppies are just wanted as pets and don't need shedloads of CCs, Dog breeders are sometimes nothing more than puppy farms out for a fast buck.To assume someone who want's to let their pet have a litter of pups is a backstreet breeder and is doing something morally wrong is over the top, as long as they do health checks and work along with a vet i don't see a problem to be honest”
If there weren't so many unwanted pups and dogs and so many unhealthy dogs I would agree with you but sadly many don't health screen and take responsibility for returned pups so we are in a really bad situation in this country. Until it's sorted out I don't really think we can carry on just breeding like this.
They are cocker spaniels and will be used for pets. Both dogs have had full health checks and the vet will be involved too.
That sounds a bit better but are they truly good examples of their breed ? Which would mean tested against other bests at shows etc.
Why do you want to breed your dog? is the question I would ask. I have cockers, one of my cockers grand parent was runner up at Crufts (or reserve best to be all proper) and I've been offered a load of money to breed him. But I dont. Our local paper has adverts for pups every week. We certainly dont need anymore in this area.
Probaly not what you want to hear ,but I have BIG problem with dog breeding. My MIL has been breeding tibetan terriers for years, and yes she does all the right things, bitches, studs, puppies well looked after, health checked, regular check-ups with vet, kc registered, offers to have pups back if new owners find the novellty wears off, etc, etc infact, you really cannot fault her, BUT I hate, just hate the way she churns out those puppies. Every few months another of her bitches is in-pup with another half dozen puppies to find homes for.
I also don't like the way she holds a few of her pups back each time, shows them for a year or so and when no good sells them on. Same with her bitches, once their breeding days are over they too are sold on. It just seems like a constant stream of different dogs, pups being sold, bought in etc. I just find it wrong. There are too many lovely dogs in pounds without her greediness adding to the number.
Anyway, not saying you're like my mil, but would like to see dog breeding more regulated than it is.
ruby
I also don't like the way she holds a few of her pups back each time, shows them for a year or so and when no good sells them on. Same with her bitches, once their breeding days are over they too are sold on. It just seems like a constant stream of different dogs, pups being sold, bought in etc. I just find it wrong. There are too many lovely dogs in pounds without her greediness adding to the number.
Anyway, not saying you're like my mil, but would like to see dog breeding more regulated than it is.
ruby
Originally Posted by DitzyDi:
“They are cocker spaniels and will be used for pets. Both dogs have had full health checks and the vet will be involved too.”
“They are cocker spaniels and will be used for pets. Both dogs have had full health checks and the vet will be involved too.”
Are they working or show type?
Either way, the standard for breeding for pets should never be any lower than the standard for breeding show or working dogs, though health and temperament would be more important than conformity or working ability.
I know more about show type, though I actually know more working Cockers!!
Show type definitely need clear CERFs - they are prone to eye problems including PRA and ingrowing eyelashes. They should also be DNA tested for PRA unless clear by birth (ie, both of their parents are DNA clear for PRA)
Otherwise AFAIK, they are pretty robust. Hip scoring is an option, but if you know the lines well and know them to be clear of any hip problems I'm not sure how essential this would be - the breed club would be able to advise more.
There are temperament problems in some lines, and kidney problems in some so it is very important you do your research of the lines well.
If they are working types, I can find out more about health testing as I usually see at least two working types at least once a week when walking my dogs.
Also remember that a LOT of Cockers end up in rescue when they hit adolescence. People see the cute puppy or the well trained adult and don't realise that even show types are, at heart, working dogs that need a lot of stimulation and firm boundaries. And so the cute puppy becomes 'aggressive' as it guards food and other resources.
If the owner of the bitch isn't in a position to take back any unruly teenagers, will you be? Or will they add to the number of Cockers in rescue? And remember that in this economic climate not all the pups may sell, or could be returned as people's circumstances change. What provision have you and the bitches owner made for this? Does she have a long waiting list for her pups?
Also remember that using a dog at stud can change it's temperament for the worse. Are you prepared for that if it happens?
It is rare, but accidents happen during the mating - is the bitch owner experienced enough to minimize the risk? And you MUST make sure she isn't a maiden bitch - two inexperienced dogs and inexperienced owners is a potential disaster and potentially very expensive vet bill!!
I personally would never breed just to produce 'pets' - only ever to improve the breed - health, temperament and conformity. All three or not at all. Which is why my Cresties are neuters
Great pets, but one doesn't have the health or conformity and the other doesn't have the temperament. My Glen was stud material, but I got sick of him trying to share his sweet loving with every dog, cat and stuffed toy he came across
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“If there weren't so many unwanted pups and dogs and so many unhealthy dogs I would agree with you but sadly many don't health screen and take responsibility for returned pups so we are in a really bad situation in this country. Until it's sorted out I don't really think we can carry on just breeding like this.”
“If there weren't so many unwanted pups and dogs and so many unhealthy dogs I would agree with you but sadly many don't health screen and take responsibility for returned pups so we are in a really bad situation in this country. Until it's sorted out I don't really think we can carry on just breeding like this.
”
I agree 100% with you molliepops but i have a big problem with breeders churning out puppies ten to the dozen almost like puppy factories, i would much prefer a couple of responsible owners breed, than for these greedy money grabbers to profit.
Originally Posted by max25:
“I agree 100% with you molliepops but i have a big problem with breeders churning out puppies ten to the dozen almost like puppy factories, i would much prefer a couple of responsible owners breed, than for these greedy money grabbers to profit.”
“I agree 100% with you molliepops but i have a big problem with breeders churning out puppies ten to the dozen almost like puppy factories, i would much prefer a couple of responsible owners breed, than for these greedy money grabbers to profit.”
The problem is, most of the dogs in rescue come from 'Back Yard Breeders' not puppy farms or show breeders.
While puppy farms should be shut down and some show breeders are certainly not in it for the love of the breed, most owners are NOT responsible if breeding. They don't health test, don't check lines for health and temperament let alone conformity, don't have contracts, don't take back their pups and don't offer life long support.
SOME do - my Glen came from someone who was more pet owner than show dog owner. While her bitch came from great lines and they were health tested and she successfully showed her, she was 100% pet. The sire was a show and working dog! But they did everything right and were in it for the love of the (rare) breed.
Unfortunately, breeders like her were rare 13 years ago when I got my Glen and are like hen's teeth now.
Originally Posted by StressMonkey:
“The problem is, most of the dogs in rescue come from 'Back Yard Breeders' not puppy farms or show breeders.
While puppy farms should be shut down and some show breeders are certainly not in it for the love of the breed, most owners are NOT responsible if breeding. They don't health test, don't check lines for health and temperament let alone conformity, don't have contracts, don't take back their pups and don't offer life long support.
SOME do - my Glen came from someone who was more pet owner than show dog owner. While her bitch came from great lines and they were health tested and she successfully showed her, she was 100% pet. The sire was a show and working dog! But they did everything right and were in it for the love of the (rare) breed.
Unfortunately, breeders like her were rare 13 years ago when I got my Glen and are like hen's teeth now.”
“The problem is, most of the dogs in rescue come from 'Back Yard Breeders' not puppy farms or show breeders.
While puppy farms should be shut down and some show breeders are certainly not in it for the love of the breed, most owners are NOT responsible if breeding. They don't health test, don't check lines for health and temperament let alone conformity, don't have contracts, don't take back their pups and don't offer life long support.
SOME do - my Glen came from someone who was more pet owner than show dog owner. While her bitch came from great lines and they were health tested and she successfully showed her, she was 100% pet. The sire was a show and working dog! But they did everything right and were in it for the love of the (rare) breed.
Unfortunately, breeders like her were rare 13 years ago when I got my Glen and are like hen's teeth now.”
I know what your saying is spot on stressmonkey, i tend to hang around with dog owners who are very responsible and bend over backwards to ensure the health and safety of their pets i am judging my opinion on that, of course that is not alway's the case.
Originally Posted by DitzyDi:
“They are cocker spaniels and will be used for pets. Both dogs have had full health checks and the vet will be involved too.”
“They are cocker spaniels and will be used for pets. Both dogs have had full health checks and the vet will be involved too.”
What health checks have they had?
PRA and FN checked?
Cocker Spaniels are being over bred at the moment and thus their health and temperament are suffering imo. You also run the risk of your dog changing behaviourally if he was studded.
Leave it to the reputable breeders would be my advice.
www.cockersonline.co.uk
Quote:
“Should I offer my pet Cocker dog at stud?
Allowing a dog to sire a litter is a big decision & needs a lot of thought about the responsibilities involved & the amount of knowledge needed.
The responsible owner of a potential stud dog must have in depth knowledge on a range of subjects including:
The owner must know what hereditary problems exist in the breed & which lines have produced problems in the past to be able to make an educated decision about whether their dog should be used at all & if so, which bitches he would suit. It is never just a case of letting any bitch mate any dog - this could lead to disaster!
The Bitch's Cycle. The stud dog owner must be able to advise novice bitch owners when to bring their bitch for mating as all bitches differ. The stud dog owner must know from just looking at a bitch whether she is receptive to mating or not - introducing a stud dog to a bitch who is not ready for mating could lead to the dog being injured as bitches may be aggressive to males if they are not ready. The stud dog owner must also be prepared to board an in season bitch for a few days or longer if she arrives before she is receptive to mating.
Mating Techniques. Contrary to popular belief, not all male dogs know instinctively what to do with an in season bitch - many need careful tutoring & the stud dog owner must know how to do this & how to assist a dog to achieve a successful mating. Some matings can be technically difficult for example if the dog & bitch vary in size too much or if the bitch is reluctant to stand still to be mated. Again, the stud dog owner needs to know what to do to achieve a good result without injury or distress being caused to either party.
Managing the Stud Dog. Once a dog is used at stud, it is not unusual for his personality to alter to some extent. Some have a tendency to mark their territory indoors (cocking legs on furniture etc) and may be more likely to wander off the lead in search of in season bitches. Once a dog has been allowed to mate one bitch, they will generally want others! Some may also become more aggressive to other male dogs (due to sexual competitiveness). The potential stud dog owner needs to decide whether they can cope with these possible behavioural changes.
Responsibility for Puppies. Once a dog has been used at stud, the owner cannot just take the money & forget about it. The stud dog owner must be prepared to give advice on rearing puppies to the bitch owner (if a first time breeder) & must also take responsibility for any hereditary defects produced by their dog. They are also morally responsible for helping with the rehoming of any of their dog's offspring should the need arise at any time. This responsibility also means the stud dog owner must vet bitch owners that contact them to ensure that the breeder is reputable (not a puppy farmer for instance!) & that the bitch is old enough to be mated (or not too old) & has passed all the recommended health tests (annual eye tests, DNA tests for PRA & FN for example).
If after reading this, you feel you can undertake the responsibilities of offering your dog at stud, then you need to get him seen by reputable breeders. This means showing him (if a show-type Cocker) or working him in the field (if a Working Cocker) If other breeders can see that he is an excellent example of the breed, then they may ask to use him at stud, but the key word is "may" - there are already a large number of experienced Cocker stud dogs in the country for the reputable breeder to choose from. It goes without saying that your dog should also have had the recommended health screening tests which means as an absolute bare minimum, he should have a current clear eye test certificate, including the gonioscopy test for predisposition to Glaucoma. Eye testing can only be carried out by a specialist vet - more information can be found on the Club Health page at http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/health. Many breeders would also not consider using a stud dog who has not been Optigen DNA tested for prcd_PRA (hereditary eye disease which causes blindness) and FN (fatal hereditary kidney disease) and also hip scored with a below average hip score for the breed.
As you can see, owning a stud dog is not for the fainthearted - it's not an easy way to make some extra cash & is never just a case of putting together any dog with any bitch & leaving them to get on with it – doing this could cause one or both parties to be injured and could also result in pups with health or temperament problems. If you would like to offer your dog at stud simply because you would like another puppy with his personality & looks, then it would be easier to buy another puppy from your dog's breeder!
By J E Simmonds 2003-8”
“Should I offer my pet Cocker dog at stud?
Allowing a dog to sire a litter is a big decision & needs a lot of thought about the responsibilities involved & the amount of knowledge needed.
The responsible owner of a potential stud dog must have in depth knowledge on a range of subjects including:
The owner must know what hereditary problems exist in the breed & which lines have produced problems in the past to be able to make an educated decision about whether their dog should be used at all & if so, which bitches he would suit. It is never just a case of letting any bitch mate any dog - this could lead to disaster!
The Bitch's Cycle. The stud dog owner must be able to advise novice bitch owners when to bring their bitch for mating as all bitches differ. The stud dog owner must know from just looking at a bitch whether she is receptive to mating or not - introducing a stud dog to a bitch who is not ready for mating could lead to the dog being injured as bitches may be aggressive to males if they are not ready. The stud dog owner must also be prepared to board an in season bitch for a few days or longer if she arrives before she is receptive to mating.
Mating Techniques. Contrary to popular belief, not all male dogs know instinctively what to do with an in season bitch - many need careful tutoring & the stud dog owner must know how to do this & how to assist a dog to achieve a successful mating. Some matings can be technically difficult for example if the dog & bitch vary in size too much or if the bitch is reluctant to stand still to be mated. Again, the stud dog owner needs to know what to do to achieve a good result without injury or distress being caused to either party.
Managing the Stud Dog. Once a dog is used at stud, it is not unusual for his personality to alter to some extent. Some have a tendency to mark their territory indoors (cocking legs on furniture etc) and may be more likely to wander off the lead in search of in season bitches. Once a dog has been allowed to mate one bitch, they will generally want others! Some may also become more aggressive to other male dogs (due to sexual competitiveness). The potential stud dog owner needs to decide whether they can cope with these possible behavioural changes.
Responsibility for Puppies. Once a dog has been used at stud, the owner cannot just take the money & forget about it. The stud dog owner must be prepared to give advice on rearing puppies to the bitch owner (if a first time breeder) & must also take responsibility for any hereditary defects produced by their dog. They are also morally responsible for helping with the rehoming of any of their dog's offspring should the need arise at any time. This responsibility also means the stud dog owner must vet bitch owners that contact them to ensure that the breeder is reputable (not a puppy farmer for instance!) & that the bitch is old enough to be mated (or not too old) & has passed all the recommended health tests (annual eye tests, DNA tests for PRA & FN for example).
If after reading this, you feel you can undertake the responsibilities of offering your dog at stud, then you need to get him seen by reputable breeders. This means showing him (if a show-type Cocker) or working him in the field (if a Working Cocker) If other breeders can see that he is an excellent example of the breed, then they may ask to use him at stud, but the key word is "may" - there are already a large number of experienced Cocker stud dogs in the country for the reputable breeder to choose from. It goes without saying that your dog should also have had the recommended health screening tests which means as an absolute bare minimum, he should have a current clear eye test certificate, including the gonioscopy test for predisposition to Glaucoma. Eye testing can only be carried out by a specialist vet - more information can be found on the Club Health page at http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/health. Many breeders would also not consider using a stud dog who has not been Optigen DNA tested for prcd_PRA (hereditary eye disease which causes blindness) and FN (fatal hereditary kidney disease) and also hip scored with a below average hip score for the breed.
As you can see, owning a stud dog is not for the fainthearted - it's not an easy way to make some extra cash & is never just a case of putting together any dog with any bitch & leaving them to get on with it – doing this could cause one or both parties to be injured and could also result in pups with health or temperament problems. If you would like to offer your dog at stud simply because you would like another puppy with his personality & looks, then it would be easier to buy another puppy from your dog's breeder!
By J E Simmonds 2003-8”
