Hi everyone. Im looking for as much advice as possible if anyone has any

I have a 2 and a half yr old Border terrier (female)

(Her name is Peppa by the way)

She has been a very healthy dog up untill New years day this year. She was chilled out on the sofa with us, half asleep, when someone banged quite loudly on our door. She immediately jumped up and started barking as she normally would...jumped onto the floor and by the time i had bought the person in, she staggered backwards and just fell to the floor. It looked like she had keeled over on the spot. She sempt to be unconcious for only about 15 seconds...i picked her up and lay with her on the sofa to keep her calm. After this she sempt very tired for the rest of the evening. I phoned the emergency vets and they told me to keep an eye on her as she is otherwise healthy.

All was well after that untill a week after.
It was sunday the 9th january, again peppa was chilling out on the sofa, asleep. when someone knocked rather loudly on my door again. The exact same thing happened, but this time she lost controll of her bladder. She was out for about 20/25 seconds this time. So i called the emergency vets again and this time they said they wanted to see her.

They did a full blood count (all came back normal)
took her temperature (normal)
heart sounded good
but when she listened to her lungs, she was concerned that she could slightly heard peppa taking in a sharp intake of breath. She asked if we had heard any wheezing, which we hadnt, but she gave her antibiotics to clear any chest infection up just in case.

A week on her antibiotics, and plenty of people knocking and no more "episodes" We all assumed she must have had an infection, which was now gone...How wrong were we?

This morning it happened again, this time though, it happened differently...

Myself, partner kids and peppa were lazing on my bed (always seems to happen when we're chilling out lol...i assure you we're not a lazy family lol) And my boyfriend held peppa above him so she could see out the window. Peppa then started barking at something outside, so my bf put her back on the bed to stop her barking. As soon as he did, we noticed her staggering again, she looks like shes got up too fast or something, you can see the dizziness in her. then she fell to one side again, more relaxed muscles this time though, and she didnt seem to be unconcious. Previously at the vets we were told to check her gum colour if it happened again, so we did. They were pure white.

I took her to the vets immediately and she said that her heart, pulse and lungs all sounded fine. Her gum colour was starting to return to her natural salmon pink colour. So she suggested that before she book her in for a chest xray, We research something, talk again in a week and discuss what we will do from there. She thinks she has heard of something that only border terriers suffer from, and if its that then there is no cure. She couldnt remember the name of it though. After researching, all i can come up with is something called CECS. But she doesnt spasm when she has these episodes. So now i'm really confused.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thank you and i do apologise for the very long post. I just wanted to mention anything i could think of.

Altho aren't the collapsing and lose of bladder symptoms of diabetes? Maybe you can take her for a scan rather than just a blood test.

I'm not sure what more you can do.. you are getting her seen. I hope its nothing serious and she gets well soon.

When they took her blood tests, they also did one for blood sugar and told me all was good, so i think theyve ruled out diabetes. x

It does have several factors in common with sub epileptic episodes and so, being a border, I would certainly be putting this at the top of a differential diagnosis list, unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a definitive diagnostic test.

This site doesn't say spasms are necessarily a feature:

Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome symptoms.htm

she might be narcoleptic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0h2nleWTwI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zVCYdrw-1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzs0q08uhU

apparently its when the dog gets too excited whoch might explain why your dog collapses when it gets a fright.

am i a bad person for finding those videos funny...?

Thank you for the research

If there is no certain way of testing positive for either illness, i worry that the vet will put it down to CECS, when it could infact be a form of epilepsy. Or vice versa. And she may continue to have these episodes, with no appropriate treatment. Is there a way they could tell the two apart?

Again, thank you

Lol, i will take a look at these, but weirdly enough, it actually seems quite possible. Something ive never even thought about. I will be sure to mention it to the vet. Thnk you. Will take a look at the vids now

The "epileptoid" part of the name is due to the overlap. Epilepsy basically refers to fitting that starts from the brain as normal brain activity is interrupted.

Sometimes with epilepsy the dog loses conciousness, but not with CECS, as far as I am aware. So maintaining consciousness would not rule out either, (epilepsy can also involve sub epileptic episodes of odd behaviour) but lost of conciousness may indicate epilepsy, rather than CECS.

Dog swill often appear dazed and confused after an epileptic attack, maybe less so after a CECS episode?

It is then a matter of trying to establish what is causing the epilepsy/fitting.

This could be due to an internal or external toxin, a physical trauma, such as a blow to the head, a disease, including a fever etc.

MRI scans may help diagnosis, but are very expensive (£1000+) and can be undecisive.
A brain wave scan may help but only if done during the actual fit, which is very difficult to organise.
It can sometimes be termed "idiopathic epilepsy" which basically means they don;t know why
So not only is there no definitive test for CECS, but there isn't any one single definative test for the causes of epilepsy either, just a variety of ways that may rule some things out, or in.

It sounds as if startling when relaxed may be a trigger for your dogs attacks.

Epilepsy treatment often involves treating with sedatives, to keep the brain activity below the trigger threshold, a mild sedative may also reduce her being startled.

Depending on the cause some dogs grow out of it over time, for others it can be a life long condition, it is different in each case, as is CECS.

Has you dog ever has an operation e.g spaying?
Some anaesthetics lower the epilepsy threshold so if she fitted then that might help the diagnosis, but if not it could be something that came on later.

Sorry not to be more helpful but sometimes there just isn't a nice neat answer

sorry to hear your dogggie turns but my dog suffers much the same if his quickly woken he can have a little turn or if his over excited they last seconds then he recovers he is now 12 years old and his had them all his life

After looking at the videos, narcolepsy seems unlikely, unless of course she has a very mild form

Also after reading up fully on CECS, this also seems unlikely, ive watched a few videos too and it looks like something completely different alltogether.

Epilepsy was always a thought...there's no shaking though when she collapses, is shaking always something that happens when having a fit?

The vet did say that a brain scan or ecg monitor thing would give good results, but only if she had an episode at the time. In which case, we might struggle.

Peppa has always been a very excitable dog, very crazy bless her. Not sure if this means anything.

She had a leg injury when she was a baby (few mths old) and had 2 operations to make her better. No signs of a fit back then.

You have been very helpful, and i thank you very much for your replies, all of you

Yes...yes you are.
I also thought narcolepsy when I first read the OP's post.
OP...have a look at this and watch the video on the page. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...the-count.html

Hopefully it will be something really simple. Hope you get it sorted soon. x

Edited to add...also look at "cataplexy", which is similar.

Aww, im so sorry he has suffered with them this long! Thats terrible hun. Did the vets ever give a reason why?

Thanks hun...This is probably the closest ive seen to what happens, although there is a little bit of a stagger before she drops. And its only happened 3 times in 4 weeks, maybe it could be a milder form, its certainly opened up more possibilities after posting on here, which im really grateful for. The more i can suggest or rule out the better.

yes a sort of electric inbalance in the brain but if they only lasted seconds then he was ok not to worry about