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Digital Switchover & Retunes: Anglia
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Ray Cathode
04-05-2011
Originally Posted by a516:
“To nudge the thread back to Anglian issues, as some may have seen over in the main Freeview forum, QVC Beauty is now confirmed in the old Create & Craft slot on Arqiva B, so Sandy Heath viewers will have this service on channel (LCN) 48.

Just to add to what I wrote earlier, it's quite possible that ESPN could acquire the pre-DSO BBC and post-DSO Arqiva slot - but to migrate over to it now would be commercial suicide in many areas due to the late conversion of Mux C following switchover affecting Sandy Heath and other transmitters this year. Subscribers would suddenly lose access to the service for a few months. The switchover plan has already been tweaked here and there to favour Mux D/Arqiva B's early transition and to give it better frequencies where possible, but to do it for Mux C/Arqiva A would be more difficult as it's basically too late to make changes at some sites.”

Nevertheless it may be the only option for ESPN to get a 24/7 slot, and by the end of 2011 most of the Arq A anomalies will be gone anyway. If Channel 5 want their capacity back, ESPN will have to move. I would guess in June or July this year.

I expect the 10th Arq A stream will also be sold shortly well before the end of DSO. I think it's only Sudbury that has a problem until well into 2012
a516
04-05-2011
Originally Posted by Ray Cathode:
“Nevertheless it may be the only option for ESPN to get a 24/7 slot, and by the end of 2011 most of the Arq A anomalies will be gone anyway. If Channel 5 want their capacity back, ESPN will have to move. I would guess in June or July this year.

I expect the 10th Arq A stream will also be sold shortly well before the end of DSO. I think it's only Sudbury that has a problem until well into 2012”

I agree that it would be good for ESPN - but until main transmitters like Sandy Heath and Mendip* are sorted out, commercially not good. Perhaps a deal can be found to give the capacity to a shopping channel until Autumn and then go live on Arqiva A. Like SuperCasino held capacity on Mux A for a few months until Quest went live.

Sandy Heath viewers will probably not mourn the loss of Sky Text, but I reckon there will be a few BT Vision/TUTV ESPN subscribers around that wouldn't be happy. And with pay DTT services not doing too well, even the most temporary loss of coverage would play into Sky's hands.

*Mendip Arq B is already sorted, but the other COM muxes are to yet to migrate to Post DSO mode.
C19th Fox
04-05-2011
Originally Posted by Big_A:
“That's the phrase isn't it - Peterborough area - Peterborough itself IS within the Sandy Heath primary service area - Spalding in Lincolnshire isn't.

Andy”

Whilst I can see that Spalding is going to be on the fringes of the Sandy Heath transmission area the bit that is quite concerning about the 2013 reception change is that even postcodes well within the City of Peterborough area will turn "orange" after this change - example is PE4 which covers the northern suburbs of Peterborough. The best analogy that I can think of is if the good folk of Arnold a suburb of Nottingham were to suddenly find themselves under the full strength of Belmont whilst losing Nottingham.I would be most peeved if I lived in this area of Peterborough.

I appreciate that we won't know the final picture until all these reception changes are complete but one must assume that their prediction model is pretty reliable so this is something that I will probably take further.

I note your comments about Satellite but on Freesat Anglia (West) and Yorkshire (East) are I understand encrypted so no solution there!
Ray Cathode
04-05-2011
Originally Posted by C19th Fox:
“Whilst I can see that Spalding is going to be on the fringes of the Sandy Heath transmission area the bit that is quite concerning about the 2013 reception change is that even postcodes well within the City of Peterborough area will turn "orange" after this change - example is PE4 which covers the northern suburbs of Peterborough. The best analogy that I can think of is if the good folk of Arnold a suburb of Nottingham were to suddenly find themselves under the full strength of Belmont whilst losing Nottingham.I would be most peeved if I lived in this area of Peterborough.

I appreciate that we won't know the final picture until all these reception changes are complete but one must assume that their prediction model is pretty reliable so this is something that I will probably take further.

I note your comments about Satellite but on Freesat Anglia (West) and Yorkshire (East) are I understand encrypted so no solution there!”

Orange is not the end of the world; it just means you need a better than average aerial. DUK use a roof mounted one at 10m for their calculations. So go higher and use one with more gain.

I am receiving red muxes here with no problem, other than a DAT45.
Big_A
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by C19th Fox:
“... the bit that is quite concerning about the 2013 reception change is that even postcodes well within the City of Peterborough area will turn "orange" after this change - example is PE4 which covers the northern suburbs of Peterborough. The best analogy that I can think of is if the good folk of Arnold a suburb of Nottingham were to suddenly find themselves under the full strength of Belmont whilst losing Nottingham.”

After trying random postcodes via google maps and the database there are actually quite a lot of locations who are going to be left with "orange reception" as their best deal after switchover.

I've found areas of Swindon that will not get either Mendip or Oxford, and Luton that will not get either Sandy Heath, Luton relay or Crystal Palace in full green - I know these areas have alternatives: cable/satellite, but thats not the point when we have small relays engineered to serve a few hundred people.

My parents own postcode in Nuneaton gives an orange channel on their best transmitter Waltham - however using my powers of deduction I think this is because of a co-channel with Oxford. However there is a hill between them and Oxford: so I'm hoping that the database has overestimated the possible clash.

This then makes me think that the database does not take much account of the lie of the land. Another example is Winter Hill where I live - my postcode suggests I should get almost 99.9999 reception of Winter Hill - and I know people who live within a mile who can, but there is nothing on this side of the hill !

Anyway the digital UK postcode predictor is another discussion thread....

Andy
Big_A
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Ray Cathode:
“Orange is not the end of the world; it just means you need a better than average aerial. DUK use a roof mounted one at 10m for their calculations. So go higher and use one with more gain.

I am receiving red muxes here with no problem, other than a DAT45.”

Oops C19th Fox lives in a bungalow. C19th - why don't you look at this http://www.aerialsandtv.com/sandytransmitter.html

The chap who runs this business posts on here, and they even recommend which aerial is best. With mariginal, weak reception quality of aerial, positioning and cable quality are essential elements.

Andy
OwenSmith
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Big_A:
“This then makes me think that the database does not take much account of the lie of the land. Another example is Winter Hill where I live - my postcode suggests I should get almost 99.9999 reception of Winter Hill - and I know people who live within a mile who can, but there is nothing on this side of the hill !”

The database takes no account of the lie of the land in my experience. It says that my parents (HD9 2DU) are fully served by digital terrestrial today on pre switchover Emley Moor. But in fact they are in a steep valley with no line of site of Emley Moor and their analogue reception is from the Holmfirth repeater. I have got Freeview working for my parents, using a Triax BB Grid and 23db masthead amp mounted on the rear wall of the house (to use the building to screen it from traffic on the road). This receives a reflection of Emley Moor from the even steeper far side of the valley where there is line of sight to Emley Moor from only a few miles away. The analogue picture from this is dreadful with 3 or 4 strong ghost images, but digital copes fine with it. The 23db masthead amp isn't needed to get reception, it's needed to make the signal strong enough to be immune to impulse interference and my mum's hair dryer inside the house. Cabled on CT100 foam spaced, fully screened masthead amp and power supply.
Big_A
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by OwenSmith:
“The database takes no account of the lie of the land in my experience. It says that my parents (HD9 2DU) are fully served by digital terrestrial today on pre switchover Emley Moor. But in fact they are in a steep valley with no line of site of Emley Moor and their analogue reception is from the Holmfirth repeater. I have got Freeview working for my parents, using a Triax BB Grid and 23db masthead amp mounted on the rear wall of the house (to use the building to screen it from traffic on the road). This receives a reflection of Emley Moor from the even steeper far side of the valley where there is line of sight to Emley Moor from only a few miles away. The analogue picture from this is dreadful with 3 or 4 strong ghost images, but digital copes fine with it. The 23db masthead amp isn't needed to get reception, it's needed to make the signal strong enough to be immune to impulse interference and my mum's hair dryer inside the house. Cabled on CT100 foam spaced, fully screened masthead amp and power supply.”

They aren't that far from me: I've just used a grid aerial as well to improve my reception as I was interested to see how they work, and despite people saying they don't do the job - mine is working perfectly - well done on your installation sounds great

Andy
OwenSmith
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Big_A:
“They aren't that far from me: I've just used a grid aerial as well to improve my reception as I was interested to see how they work, and despite people saying they don't do the job - mine is working perfectly - well done on your installation sounds great.”

Grid aerials seem to be a bit like log periodics, ie. wideband and low to medium gain across the entire band. Where they differ is that grid aerials have a very wide acceptance angle, which is useful in the USA and other countries with many different transmitting stations but of little value in the UK where each house usually receives from one transmitter.

I used a grid for my parents because I didn't need high gain, but I did need a high acceptance angle because the reflections from the far side of the valley are all over the place (different angles for different muxes as tested with a more directional aerial). Also the grid makes a very neat installation mounted on the rear wall of the house, it barely protrudes beyond the guttering.

It's hard to find data for grid aerials, even this voluminous site has nothing about them: http://www.aerialsandtv.com/
Ray Cathode
05-05-2011
Grid aerials have a higher front to back ratio than logs and so can be used to reduce reflections from behind. They have the same low gain as logs. I used one once in a difficult area in East Anglia.
beejay3
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by OwenSmith:
“The database takes no account of the lie of the land in my experience.”

This website shows lie of land if the "terrain" option is selected for any postcode
http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

There is a better version which I can't find at the moment which draws a line twixt transmitter and address.
brumlad36
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by beejay3:
“This website shows lie of land if the "terrain" option is selected for any postcode
http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

There is a better version which I can't find at the moment which draws a line twixt transmitter and address.”

Do you mean this one? http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html

Chris.
OwenSmith
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by beejay3:
“This website shows lie of land if the "terrain" option is selected for any postcode
http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

There is a better version which I can't find at the moment which draws a line twixt transmitter and address.”

I'm sure Wolfbane used to have this but it doesn't seem to be on their site any more: http://www.wolfbane.com/
Big_A
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by beejay3:
“This website shows lie of land if the "terrain" option is selected for any postcode
http://www.ukfree.tv/transmitters.php

There is a better version which I can't find at the moment which draws a line twixt transmitter and address.”

I really like Brian's website, and look at it regularly. I have a lot of time for it - but I have to disagree - the map under terrain still shows me as being "in the green" for Winter Hill but I'm not, I can't get a "brass razoo" on the Winter Hill channels at my location - but I appreciate they can up the hill by the local hospital

Andy
Big_A
05-05-2011
Oh no we are going to get told off - this is the Anglia thread and I'm whittering on about getting Winter Hill in West Yorkshire!
OwenSmith
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Big_A:
“Oh no we are going to get told off - this is the Anglia thread and I'm whittering on about getting Winter Hill in West Yorkshire!”

OK to get back on topic for Anglia, the main problem I've found round here is that it's all so flat. I have a hell of a job seeing over the trees or the neighbours houses to get a view of Sandy Heath.
chrisy
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by OwenSmith:
“I'm sure Wolfbane used to have this but it doesn't seem to be on their site any more: http://www.wolfbane.com/”

It's still there: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe

Type in a postcode, then click on the transmitter grid reference. Note that the resulting file is a PostScript file (not a PDF).

I just tried it so it definitely still works, and the graphs are rather fetching
OwenSmith
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by chrisy:
“It's still there: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe

Type in a postcode, then click on the transmitter grid reference. Note that the resulting file is a PostScript file (not a PDF).

I just tried it so it definitely still works, and the graphs are rather fetching ”

It might still be there but it's not as obvious from their front page as it used to be, it being in the Archive section (not somewhere I tend to look). Also I can't view the graphs any more, IE7 (mandated at work) doesn't like them. I'm sure this used to work for me, maybe Wolfbane changed the format?
Big_A
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by OwenSmith:
“OK to get back on topic for Anglia, the main problem I've found round here is that it's all so flat. I have a hell of a job seeing over the trees or the neighbours houses to get a view of Sandy Heath.”

Compared with where you parents live - everywhere is flat!

Andy
chrisy
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by OwenSmith:
“It might still be there but it's not as obvious from their front page as it used to be, it being in the Archive section (not somewhere I tend to look). Also I can't view the graphs any more, IE7 (mandated at work) doesn't like them. I'm sure this used to work for me, maybe Wolfbane changed the format?”

I don't think it has moved. This page is the usual entry point though: http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/tvr.htm

The graphs have always been PS, I remember thinking back when they were first added that it was a strange choice.

Oh, I've just noticed there is a direct link to the path predictor: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/txpath.exe
a516
05-05-2011
A further explanation as to why Sandy Heath coverage is scheduled to change in 2012 onward is the fact that a different antenna is being used for some services, so radiation patterns may change with the transfer of antenna. However I would take predictions for 2012 onward with a pinch of salt as there will be numerous changes to the final plan until then.
C19th Fox
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by chrisy:
“It's still there: http://www.wolfbane.com/cgi-bin/tvd.exe

Type in a postcode, then click on the transmitter grid reference. Note that the resulting file is a PostScript file (not a PDF).

I just tried it so it definitely still works, and the graphs are rather fetching ”

Well all I can get is a load of text that means little - do I need a utlity to translate it? I'm on IE8 if that helps.
C19th Fox
05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Big_A:
“I really like Brian's website, and look at it regularly. I have a lot of time for it - but I have to disagree - the map under terrain still shows me as being "in the green" for Winter Hill but I'm not, I can't get a "brass razoo" on the Winter Hill channels at my location - but I appreciate they can up the hill by the local hospital

Andy”

I too like this website but (to keep things Anglia) if you select the Sandy Heath transmitter on the Freeview pages you get a map showing the yellow stronger signal area abruptly stop across the Fens with no Green fade area. Excluded are such sizable places as Wisbech. It also predicts Sandy Heath to be out of sight for my postcode. Is there a suggestion that the excluded area of the Fens are too low for a signal? Most Fenland Settlements are on higher ground at 3 metres or so above sea level. I know that a digital signal has a cut off point where no signal can be acheived (unlike Analogue which simply fades), but if it is that sensitive then there are going to be a lot of tall aerials required if the map is to be interpreted this way.

Perhaps its all part of the plan to encourage green energy - TV aerials that incorporate wind turbines to make use of the lazy winds in the Fens (go straight through you as opposed to around you)
Big_A
06-05-2011
Originally Posted by C19th Fox:
“I too like this website but (to keep things Anglia) if you select the Sandy Heath transmitter on the Freeview pages you get a map showing the yellow stronger signal area abruptly stop across the Fens with no Green fade area. Excluded are such sizable places as Wisbech. It also predicts Sandy Heath to be out of sight for my postcode. Is there a suggestion that the excluded area of the Fens are too low for a signal? Most Fenland Settlements are on higher ground at 3 metres or so above sea level. I know that a digital signal has a cut off point where no signal can be acheived (unlike Analogue which simply fades), but if it is that sensitive then there are going to be a lot of tall aerials required if the map is to be interpreted this way.

Perhaps its all part of the plan to encourage green energy - TV aerials that incorporate wind turbines to make use of the lazy winds in the Fens (go straight through you as opposed to around you)”

You need to remember that the yellow and green areas on those maps are the same as the primary and secondary coverage areas on the old IBA maps.

Yellow = Primary service area - all this means is that this is best signal in that area, and the area that was intended for coverage from that station. In reality all that means is that it will be good enough a signal. Green means there is a better signal from another transmitter. But it does not mean that all yellow areas will be stronger than all green areas.

For example - Sandy Heath may be, lets say, 70% at location A where it is yellow - there's nothing else stronger here.

At location B, which for our purposes is a green area, Sandy Heath is actually 80% strength, but it's green because Belmont is 88% which is the yellow station for location B.

Its a classic mistake to assume that a green area means reception will not be good - and the reason why the yellow area abruptly stops is because there is nothing else in that area, and the reception has dropped below whats acceptable.

I know this does not help you, but it does show that you area is not within the Sandy Heath area, which is an indication as to how difficult is to get reception in your area from that station.

Maybe an aerial on a wind turbine would be a good idea then!

Andy
chrisy
06-05-2011
Originally Posted by C19th Fox:
“Well all I can get is a load of text that means little - do I need a utlity to translate it? I'm on IE8 if that helps.”

There are some suggestions at the bottom of the page.

Basically, what you need is this:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/

Download both GhostScript and GSView.
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