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Moffat's scripts - too complicated?
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DavetheScot
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by Joanne1938:
“Whilst everyone has their own view, I find I'm a little confused by this. Yes we have the drama of the main characters' interplay, it is a bit soapish. We also have the convoluted time-meddling storylines like TIA and DOTM. but we still have situation led adventures, look at tonight on the stranded pirate ship! The first Doctor I ever saw was John Pertwee so the new style of the "non-patriarch" is a bit new to me, though an obvious change and in many ways fun. My only concern is that the show is Dr. Who, he is the main character and the current characters played by Karen Gillan and Alex Kingston mustn't take over in the public's minds. That is the province of the writers though and it hasn't happened so far.”

You're right that this week's episode is very different to the opening two-parter. There were brief references to the "arc" but they didn't affect the story.

I'm perfectly at ease with the ongoing story of the characters and how they relate to each other. I don't think that's too soapy, just the nature of drama. The classic series tended to steer a bit clear of this, but that's no longer realistic.

No, what I find irritating is a story that concentrates so much on an "arc" that it can't stand on its own.
DavetheScot
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by Deserana 12:
“I think this thread (as well as seveal many others floating around) is proof that some people are ever going to be satisfied completely with DW. I mean this has started ever since Christopher Ecclestone started some fans wanted him to leave due to him not really having full commitment to the show, in steps Tennant who to some was far too OTT with some of his expressions and also some were sick with the Doc/Rose storyline so in S3 we get rid of Rose and replace her with Martha who was now too boring and again too lovey for The Doctor, so now its bye bye Martha and back too Donna who was immediately approached hesitantly due to being to annoying in her previous episode but was soon welcomed with open arms after being Doctor friend rather than anything which was a breath of fresh air, unlike RTD's version of the show which was now apparently becoming stale and fans wanted a decent send off for one of the most well recieved Doctors in history but instead we got what has been hailed as some of the poorest episodes of the entire new era.

Many wanted a brand new start to keep things fresh and new so in steps Matt Smith, Karen Gillan and Steven Moffat but now the show was considered too different with a too alieny Doctor and an unlikeable companion and an entirely different feel but too some others was much better and the kick DW had been looking for. But now this was still not eough to some others as more was expected from Moffat the man behind Blink and Silence in the Library, fans wanted and more intriguing storylines as this is what some have come to expect from Moffat so we get given the crack arc ending with The Big Bang which to some was a huge cop out others a complete success and refreshing compared to RTD's action finales, leading overall to either a very dissapointing or absolutely brilliant series But now Moffat could try his hand at a christmas episode which in the past had been arguably dissapointing for being either a) boring b) unchristmassy. So up comes Moffat with A Christmas Carol which again arguably is possibly the most christmassy and well recieved christmas ep of Who but still managed to fall victim to the "booooorrrriiinnngggg" brigade". However, afterwards all hype steered toward Series 6 and some people wanted more complexity and scariness from the man behind Blink. So Moffat delivers The Impossible Astronaut, Day of the Moon and more of River Song leading to "is Doctor Who too scary now?" and "Are Doctor Who plots becoming unfathomable?" also wanting more time off of the arc but to others is the best opening new has had to offer. So after this a lot of people wanted a break from the timey wimeyness of Big Bang, Christmas Carol, Astronaut, Day of the Moon so in comes The Curse of the Black Spot which now was bombared by people saying "boring" and "it needed to be more complicated" however some saying "it was an enjoyable romp something we needed".

So I personally I dont think they are but with this show it seems not many do know what they want.”

It's not so much that people don't know what they want, more that different people like different things. The people who were bored by Curse of the Black Spot probably loved The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon. Those who disliked the latter probably loved the former; I did for one.
Doctor Why
08-05-2011
It definitely seems like you have to have the real mythology of the show embedded in your brain in order to fully appreciate Moffat's vision of the series. Which is fine, because it's a breath of fresh air after the truly awful Tennant era.

Since Moffat took over, the show has had a certain dark and mythic quality about it. Combined with Matt Smith's traditional and very much 'old-school' take on The Doctor and you have a show which (finally) seems like it's old self again.

I'm also loving the fact that the Eleventh Doctor seems more like a grandfather to Amy, rather than a 'partner' or lover. It's very much in line with how the old Doctors were. Even when he kissed River Song in the previous episode, his reaction was merely "Okay.... interesting". I really missed that quirky side of The Doctor's character during the Russell T Davies era.
Fudd
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by DavetheScot:
“It's not so much that people don't know what they want, more that different people like different things. The people who were bored by Curse of the Black Spot probably loved The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon. Those who disliked the latter probably loved the former; I did for one.”

I was going to say on the episode thread - it seems that those who didn't like the opening two parter liked Curse of the Black Spot and vice versa. Though I must admit I've enjoyed all three episodes.

Different strokes for different folks - but I do think it shows that they did the right thing by moving the episode to this point in the series.
bart2007
08-05-2011
Let SM do complicated stuff, we all really loving it ! We can spend hours re watching episodes so far.. and seeing and making / guessing ideas all the time.. if we all stick to the rule......! and rememebr SPOILERS .. dont touch them !
DavetheScot
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by Doctor Why:
“It definitely seems like you have to have the real mythology of the show embedded in your brain in order to fully appreciate Moffat's vision of the series. Which is fine, because it's a breath of fresh air after the truly awful Tennant era.

Since Moffat took over, the show has had a certain dark and mythic quality about it. Combined with Matt Smith's traditional and very much 'old-school' take on The Doctor and you have a show which (finally) seems like it's old self again.

I'm also loving the fact that the Eleventh Doctor seems more like a grandfather to Amy, rather than a 'partner' or lover. It's very much in line with how the old Doctors were. Even when he kissed River Song in the previous episode, his reaction was merely "Okay.... interesting". I really missed that quirky side of The Doctor's character during the Russell T Davies era.”

I don't get that. I've been watching since Jon Pertwee and at no time have we had anything resembling the two-parter that started this series. The direction The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon seemed to be going in is certainly not towards its old self.
Turquoise
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by GazOaks:
“I don't understand all these people saying what about this type of viewer or that type of viewer. To be honest I only care about my viewing, I'm enjoying it, I don't care about casual viewers or younger viewers or viewers who are a bit intellectually challenged.”

Younger viewers I can sort of understand the worry about, although it isn't a personal concern of mine. What I don't understand is everyone worrying about casual viewers. If you start censoring your show in case casual viewers get confused, all you're doing is dumbing it down. Gearing everything towards casual viewers bars depth- is that really what we want?

I love how Doctor Who is so much more complex this series. I love the greyer morality, I love having a chance to analyse every little detail and come up with theories as to what's going on. If a viewer who only tunes in when they're bored and there's nothing better on doesn't get it then, to be honest, I don't really care. People keep complaining about the new series of Doctor Who "being more for geeks and long-term viewers than the masses"... but tell me, if that were true (which I'm not sure it is) why would that be wrong? Why does everything have to appeal to Jack the Lad's great Granny?
Servalan
08-05-2011
Originally Posted by Turquoise:
“Younger viewers I can sort of understand the worry about, although it isn't a personal concern of mine. What I don't understand is everyone worrying about casual viewers. If you start censoring your show in case casual viewers get confused, all you're doing is dumbing it down. Gearing everything towards casual viewers bars depth- is that really what we want?

I love how Doctor Who is so much more complex this series. I love the greyer morality, I love having a chance to analyse every little detail and come up with theories as to what's going on. If a viewer who only tunes in when they're bored and there's nothing better on doesn't get it then, to be honest, I don't really care. People keep complaining about the new series of Doctor Who "being more for geeks and long-term viewers than the masses"... but tell me, if that were true (which I'm not sure it is) why would that be wrong? Why does everything have to appeal to Jack the Lad's great Granny?”

'Casual viewers' - or the mainstream audience, as I'd call them - are what keeps Doctor Who on screen. And I'd very much challenge your argument that appealing to a wide audience automatically means dumbing down. Television history is littered with intelligently written drama that has rated extremely well - many of them episodes of Doctor Who.

And what exactly do you mean by 'depth'? Doctor Who isn't Mad Men and never will be - but it can balance intelligent and emotionally true characterisation with a plot that keeps the viewer on tenterhooks whilst also leaving them satisfied afterwards that everything that was set up has been paid off.

That kind of plotting is a fine art which I would argue Steven Moffat demonstrated brilliantly in his first four DW stories. Unfortunately, since he took over as showrunner - and without an experienced exceutive producer like Julie Gardner at his side - the plotting has become increasingly incoherent. I like to puzzle over something as much as any other viewer, but I don't want to spend so long trying to work out what is going on that I get frustrated and give up.

The Series 6 opening two-parter had some terrific elements in it. Unfortunately, many of them were not played to their full potential, because SM was busy crowbarring in references to the unexplained aspects of Series 5. So it's no wonder there are people who are confused.

And those reactions go back to expectations. When I watch Rubicon, I know I'm watching a complex thriller where nothing may be quite what it seems. It's broadcast on BBC Four, so I know from that it's aimed at a certain demographic. Doctor Who is a mainstream BBC One show, designed to attract and engage as many viewers as possible. It needs to be accessible to many different viewers on many different levels. And it's a fact that mainstream British audiences don't have the patience to stick with overextended, complex story arcs outside of soaps: the perfect example of that is Lost. Of course, Lost had a hardcore following - but those 'geeks and long-term viewers' would watch regardless and, however vocal they might be, do not, at the end of the day, comprise a big enough audience to make a programme as expensive as DW worthwhile.

And that's why it's essential that DW attracts a mainstream audience. It can do that - but expecting that audience (not the fanboys) to have the patience to engage with a multi-series story arc that gets ever more complicated may not be the way to do it. There is a fine line to walk - and, for me, the show currently lacks the executive producer talent (and I don't mean SM here) to get this right.
IvanIV
08-05-2011
There's no denying Moff's stories are sophisticated, just not in a way I would appreciate. I wanted to like the 5th series, but I did not. I have seen maybe 15 minutes from the 6th and xmas special. I do not like the Doc now coming through like an idiot, I do not like Amy Pond, I do not like their dynamics. DW used to be an essential viewing for me, because it was good and fun stories, now under Moff it's taking a turn I do not like. Which is OK, I do not have to like everything. It's not that the stories go over my head, I just do not like this type of stories.
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