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Oasis vs The Beatles vs Michael Jackson vs Elvis


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Old 16-02-2015, 17:15
mialicious
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I do agree on the influence of black artists from the 50 'till 80's. But please correct me if I'm wrong, Michael was the first who had a big following from a white youth culture.
James brown and Otis redding would have young white audiences screaming at them like the beatles. But in the modern video era i think it was MJ,Prince and Run DMC.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:16
Chris_Landbrook
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Whoever said MJ was nothing without Quincy Jones obviously has forgotten that MJ was a huge star at Motown for 15 years prior to working with Quincy and had number one hits and albums all throughout the 90s without the help of Quincy Jones.

MJ is a bloody legend. A true genius and the greatest artist of all time imo. Nobody even comes close.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:21
FMKK
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Whoever said MJ was nothing without Quincy Jones obviously has forgotten that MJ was a huge star at Motown for 15 years prior to working with Quincy and had number one hits and albums all throughout the 90s without the help of Quincy Jones.

MJ is a bloody legend. A true genius and the greatest artist of all time imo. Nobody even comes close.
So out of anyone who has ever created anything artistic in the history if this planet, none of them are even close to Michael Jackson? Talk about delusion.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:37
mushymanrob
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Massive cultural impact. A million videos of people all over the world still doing the dance in prisons, schools and villages to this day. It doesn't matter how old you are or what language you speak it is something that near enough everyone on the planet knows.The red jacket is as iconic as cola and star wars. Modern day pop artists still imitate the look the moves and the sound.It made music videos an event and in some ways just as important as the song for the mtv generation.
Lots of artists have followed the 'mini film format' Guns N Roses, Lady gaga, Meatloaf etc.
Its impact culturally has as much to do with hype and marketing as anything else. Hence not many, very few followed the mini film format. And id suggest bo rap had a much greater impact on its merit alone.
It was a huge commercial success, jackson is/was a huge commercial success, but was just part of the greater picture. Alot of jacksons dance moves were not original as any james brown vid proves.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:41
mushymanrob
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Whoever said MJ was nothing without Quincy Jones obviously has forgotten that MJ was a huge star at Motown for 15 years prior to working with Quincy and had number one hits and albums all throughout the 90s without the help of Quincy Jones.

MJ is a bloody legend. A true genius and the greatest artist of all time imo. Nobody even comes close.
You ought to do your homework concerning black artists. Plus your timeline is inaccurate. Jacko had hits with his brothers plus a few solo tracks. But went very quiet for six years, producing nothing.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:51
mushymanrob
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James brown and Otis redding would have young white audiences screaming at them like the beatles. But in the modern video era i think it was MJ,Prince and Run DMC.
Indeed, black artists like marvin gay, sam cook, jimi hendrix, etc etc etc couldnt have had the success they did without the white fans. Plus there were many multicultural, mixed race groups clearly courting both audiences long before jacko became big. The specials were on rotation on mtv before jacko, and in the uk we had rock against racism of which punk groups like the clash and pil were major players.

Philly and northern soul had huge white followings too in the early/mid 70's.

There was far far more going on then just jacko who in the bigger picture was only a minor part.
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Old 16-02-2015, 18:58
Chris_Landbrook
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So out of anyone who has ever created anything artistic in the history if this planet, none of them are even close to Michael Jackson? Talk about delusion.
If it's delusion then their are millions of delusional folks out their, because MJ is pretty much up their with The Beatles and Elvis as being widely recognised as one of the all time greats of the twentieth century.
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Old 16-02-2015, 19:00
dearmrman
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Indeed, black artists like marvin gay, sam cook, jimi hendrix, etc etc etc couldnt have had the success they did without the white fans. Plus there were many multicultural, mixed race groups clearly courting both audiences long before jacko became big. The specials were on rotation on mtv before jacko, and in the uk we had rock against racism of which punk groups like the clash and pil were major players.

Philly and northern soul had huge white followings too in the early/mid 70's.

There was far far more going on then just jacko who in the bigger picture was only a minor part.
And if anybody wants to be picky as The Specials was a mixed group...then Eddy Grant, Musical Youth, Joan Armatrading even Prince were on MTV before Jacko.
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Old 16-02-2015, 19:10
dearmrman
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If it's delusion then their are millions of delusional folks out their, because MJ is pretty much up their with The Beatles and Elvis as being widely recognised as one of the all time greats of the twentieth century.
Can't argue with that in regards to MJ
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Old 16-02-2015, 19:11
Chris_Landbrook
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You ought to do your homework concerning black artists. Plus your timeline is inaccurate. Jacko had hits with his brothers plus a few solo tracks. But went very quiet for six years, producing nothing.
If you want to discuss timelines, lets see exactly how many hits he had without Quincy Jones (and this is by no means a comprehensive list, I'm just counting songs that were big hits in either the UK or the US or both, omitting all the hits he had in the 80s with Quincy Jones - a lot of which MJ was the sole songwriter of, such as Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Beat It, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, The Way You Make Me Feel etc).

1969
I Want You Back

1970
ABC
The Love You Save
I'll Be There

1971
Got To Be There
Never Can Say Goodbye
Rockin' Robin

1972
Ben

1974
Dancing Machine

1975
We're Almost There

1977
Show You The Way To Go

1978
Blame It On The Boogie
Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)

1980
Can You Feel It
Lovely One

1981
One Day In Your Life
Walk Right Now

1984
State of Shock (with Mick Jagger)
Farewell My Summer Love
Somebody's Watching Me
Torture

1991
Black or White
Remember The Time
In The Closet
Jam

1992
Who Is It
Will You Be There
Heal The World
Give Into Me

1995
Scream
You Are Not Alone
Earth Song

1996
Stranger In Moscow
They Don't Care About Us
Why (with 3T)

1997
Blood On The Dancefloor
History/Ghosts

2001
You Rock My World
Butterflies

2003
One More Chance

2009
The UK top 40 sees dozens of MJ songs re-enter the UK top 40 chart after his death.

2010
Hold My Hand

2014
Love Never Felt So Good
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Old 16-02-2015, 19:56
Blondie X
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4. Michael Jackson. Now before all you MJ loons start up, I quite liked his songs from the 1970's up to Thriller, but then I stopped liking him. It became just to much of a circus, more about him and less about the music. I think he just believed the hype too much. His musical output certainly deteriorated after Bad.
Personally, I think it deteriorated after Off The Wall. Certainly he lost his soul and turned into a pop artist rather than a soul/dance one by the time Thriller came out. I loved OTW and I loved The Jacksons as a band (though Jackson 5 were too poppy for my taste). MY favourite songs by anyone with the Jackson name are Show You The Way To Go and Let's Get Serious - but that is such a Stevie tune.
I agree that it became less about the music with MJ and more about the showmanship and his music suffered as a result - all imo of course.
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Old 16-02-2015, 20:39
mushymanrob
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If you want to discuss timelines, lets see exactly how many hits he had without Quincy Jones

Shock horror, a jacko fan totally misses the point..

Your own list proves he wasnt a star for 15 years before quincey jones. Inaccurate claims yet again.
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Old 16-02-2015, 20:45
mushymanrob
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And if anybody wants to be picky as The Specials was a mixed group...then Eddy Grant, Musical Youth, Joan Armatrading even Prince were on MTV before Jacko.
Picky? Its central to the point about the inaccurate claim that jacko broke down racial barriers by being the first blackman on mtv.

Surely the popularity of a mixed group would be a massive step in breaking down racial barriers, far more then a black kid who turned white.

But either way, youve added evidence to break the myth (or lie) that jacko was the first black on mtv.
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Old 16-02-2015, 21:17
Cloudy Snake
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Picky? Its central to the point about the inaccurate claim that jacko broke down racial barriers by being the first blackman on mtv.

Surely the popularity of a mixed group would be a massive step in breaking down racial barriers, far more then a black kid who turned white.

But either way, youve added evidence to break the myth (or lie) that jacko was the first black on mtv.
You seem to really dislike MJ for some reason and refuse to acknowledge any of his achievements. I can understand the relevance of the Beatles despite not liking their music.

No point even replying to your posts anymore, Which is a shame if you wouldn't discredit everything just because you're not a fan personally.

Slightly repetitive now.
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Old 16-02-2015, 21:50
Rijowhite
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Massive cultural impact. A million videos of people all over the world still doing the dance in prisons, schools and villages to this day. It doesn't matter how old you are or what language you speak it is something that near enough everyone on the planet knows.The red jacket is as iconic as cola and star wars. Modern day pop artists still imitate the look the moves and the sound.It made music videos an event and in some ways just as important as the song for the mtv generation.
Lots of artists have followed the 'mini film format' Guns N Roses, Lady gaga, Meatloaf etc.
Agreed. Whilst it must be said Michael Jackson didn't create/popularized whole new music genres like Elvis, The Beatles etc before him (though his sound did evolve while still containing that unique almost overproduced element found in his records), he did change the way it was presented. His concerts and videos were like Pop Theatre/Cinema that others would try to follow. This would make him the first black megastar.

* MJ was not the first black artist on MTV, however I believe he was the first artist on their 'heavy rotation' list.
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Old 16-02-2015, 22:15
djfunnyman
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Precisely.

This country also had National Service in the fifties. A popular British artist of that decade, Terry Dene (who was known as the bad boy of British rock 'n' roll because of displays of public drunkenness and acts of vandalism), had his successful career interrupted when he was called up to do National Service. It was so badly handled by the press, that Dene received threats from his fellow conscripts for being a "prima donna" and had to be discharged after two months on medical grounds. Again, this was badly handled by the press, who insisted that Terry Dene couldn't hack National Service. After that, Dene's career was then effectively over.

But back to Elvis Presley. As far as I know he didn't try to dodge his period of National Service. He was very patriotic, and was actually proud to do his "duty" to his country. He also insisted that he wasn't given favourable treatment over his fellow conscripts.
National Service was the law at the time, so Elvis probably didn't try to dodge it

As for MJ and Quincy Jones, MJ was still a talent even without the help of Quincy
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Old 16-02-2015, 22:20
Chris_Landbrook
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Shock horror, a jacko fan totally misses the point..

Your own list proves he wasnt a star for 15 years before quincey jones. Inaccurate claims yet again.

10 years, sorry my bad (1969-1979).

Splitting straws much? The point remains, he was a star before Quincy and kept having hits after Quincy as well. And even when he was with Quincy, he single-handedly wrote most of those biggest hits from the 80s, Quincy didn't co-write. It's wasn't like a Robbie Williams/Guy Chamber affair. Michael Jackson wrote the songs, Quincy produced them, much like The Beatles wrote their stuff and let George Martin produce.

Listen to MJ's home demos of Billie Jean and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough on Youtube that he recorded before Quincy even heard the songs..... it is pretty obvious who the genius was behind that music.
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Old 16-02-2015, 22:30
FMKK
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If it's delusion then their are millions of delusional folks out their, because MJ is pretty much up their with The Beatles and Elvis as being widely recognised as one of the all time greats of the twentieth century.
Being up there with the greats of the twentieth century is quite the step down from the greatest in the history of everything ever by far though, isn't it?
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Old 16-02-2015, 22:39
Chris_Landbrook
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Being up there with the greats of the twentieth century is quite the step down from the greatest in the history of everything ever by far though, isn't it?
Well if you want to add Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky into the debate then I may have to revise my statement.
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Old 16-02-2015, 23:10
FMKK
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Well for me, he's at best second place in terms of the four listed in this thread. I prefer all the others musically though.
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Old 17-02-2015, 07:43
rbautz
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10 years, sorry my bad (1969-1979).

Splitting straws much? The point remains, he was a star before Quincy and kept having hits after Quincy as well. And even when he was with Quincy, he single-handedly wrote most of those biggest hits from the 80s, Quincy didn't co-write. It's wasn't like a Robbie Williams/Guy Chamber affair. Michael Jackson wrote the songs, Quincy produced them, much like The Beatles wrote their stuff and let George Martin produce.

Listen to MJ's home demos of Billie Jean and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough on Youtube that he recorded before Quincy even heard the songs..... it is pretty obvious who the genius was behind that music.
Michael is the genius but there are a lot of geniuses out there who we never heard of.

And look at the most selling albums, like Back In Black or Bat Out Off Hell there isn't a Jon Doe as a producer, there is always someone behind who know his own craft and the artisity of their artists.
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Old 17-02-2015, 08:28
dearmrman
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Michael is the genius but there are a lot of geniuses out there who we never heard of.

And look at the most selling albums, like Back In Black or Bat Out Off Hell there isn't a Jon Doe as a producer, there is always someone behind who know his own craft and the artisity of their artists.
Not always...sometimes it is all the artist with no producers.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:02
mushymanrob
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You seem to really dislike MJ for some reason and refuse to acknowledge any of his achievements. I can understand the relevance of the Beatles despite not liking their music.

No point even replying to your posts anymore, Which is a shame if you wouldn't discredit everything just because you're not a fan personally.

Slightly repetitive now.
wrong.

im not anti jacko, im anti bullshit. and no one has had more bullshit credited to them then jacko has by his rabid fans. recent posts on this thread highlight one of these main bits of nonsense... ie he was responsible for breaking down racial barriers, a mantra ive heard many times by the blinkered over the years. that myth/lie has been soundly disproven by realists.

for the record...i like some earlier jacko tracks, but im not a fan of anyone, i dont believe any one artist can produce nothing but 'genius' material, ive no time for 'fans of' as 'fans of' are blinkered and like some primitive tribal thing (much like football fans) rally around their chosen hero and almost worship them as some sort of demi god.

theres no denying jacksons popularity, and ive said as much, he was one of the biggest artists ever in pop music, but had little or no impact on many other genres that make up pop music... rock...dance...techno... indie... etc etc etc.

10 years, sorry my bad (1969-1979).

Splitting straws much? The point remains, he was a star before Quincy and kept having hits after Quincy as well. And even when he was with Quincy, he single-handedly wrote most of those biggest hits from the 80s, Quincy didn't co-write. It's wasn't like a Robbie Williams/Guy Chamber affair. Michael Jackson wrote the songs, Quincy produced them, much like The Beatles wrote their stuff and let George Martin produce.

Listen to MJ's home demos of Billie Jean and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough on Youtube that he recorded before Quincy even heard the songs..... it is pretty obvious who the genius was behind that music.
so you admit an error of about 33%... lol... so how many other 'facts' are you also inaccurate about regarding jacko?..

he is one of the biggest cash cows in pop music, hugely commercially successful. yet his apparent success has always been shrouded in uncertainty. so has his private life.

we will never know just what his input was on many of the material that bares his name. of course adoring fans chose to swallow the corporate image peddled by the men with their hands on the purse strings.... whilst others dont swallow the hype. theres no point in debating this issue, because we dont know the truth.

alot of people have made alot of money out of jacko... how much they had to do with creating the image and music we will never know. you dont get anwhere near the same level of uncertainty with the beatles, abba, robbie, or anyone else.
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:22
djfunnyman
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wrong.

im not anti jacko, im anti bullshit. and no one has had more bullshit credited to them then jacko has by his rabid fans. recent posts on this thread highlight one of these main bits of nonsense... ie he was responsible for breaking down racial barriers, a mantra ive heard many times by the blinkered over the years. that myth/lie has been soundly disproven by realists.

for the record...i like some earlier jacko tracks, but im not a fan of anyone, i dont believe any one artist can produce nothing but 'genius' material, ive no time for 'fans of' as 'fans of' are blinkered and like some primitive tribal thing (much like football fans) rally around their chosen hero and almost worship them as some sort of demi god.

theres no denying jacksons popularity, and ive said as much, he was one of the biggest artists ever in pop music, but had little or no impact on many other genres that make up pop music... rock...dance...techno... indie... etc etc etc.



so you admit an error of about 33%... lol... so how many other 'facts' are you also inaccurate about regarding jacko?..

he is one of the biggest cash cows in pop music, hugely commercially successful. yet his apparent success has always been shrouded in uncertainty. so has his private life.

we will never know just what his input was on many of the material that bares his name. of course adoring fans chose to swallow the corporate image peddled by the men with their hands on the purse strings.... whilst others dont swallow the hype. theres no point in debating this issue, because we dont know the truth.

alot of people have made alot of money out of jacko... how much they had to do with creating the image and music we will never know. you dont get anwhere near the same level of uncertainty with the beatles, abba, robbie, or anyone else.
Point taken, but MJ was as far as I'm aware the first black artist to become really mainstream. Yes there were artists such as Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder before MJ, but MJ was the first to be really groundbreaking with his music videos

Oasis were just as uniflunential on other genres as MJ
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:11
Cloudy Snake
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Going round in circles.
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