this is where we differ... (bib). i see alot of promotion, hype, by the money men who are creating a cash cow. is there really much (if any) difference between music videos before billy jean and thriller and afterwards?... fans seem to focus only on jacko, some might say thats to be expected and of course thats right. but it then gives a biased, blinkered view.

MJ had a huge support team, promoting and hyping up this worldwide star... and it was them who facilitated jacksons success... fair play from a commercial pov. but the early 80's were littered with groundbreaking videos, the only difference being that most of them were uk based , and non really had the commercial backing jackson had. like in football, investment buys success (or supposed to).

as for talented black musicians... you seem to downplay stevie wonder... a BLIND talent, who did truely and unambiguously created his own music, and broke new ground. thats what i call talent and 'genius'? if that term must be used? and i must add..... im not a fan of most of stevies work, this side of 1970.

I'm not downplaying Stevie Wonder, all I'm saying is that he wasn't as mainstream worldwide. Stevie Wonder is a great talent

People seem to ignore the good material that MJ produced because of his personal life. I know I've opened a Can of worms by saying this but it's true

That is where he lost his credibility as a black artist imo. He became really mainstream by leaving his soul and r&b roots behind and becoming a pop act. Other soul acts remained true to the genre and may not have sold as many records but remained respected as artists rather than showmen.

Are you for real? So Black artists must stick to soul, gospel, spirituals, rap or so-called other Black genres in order to remain credible? SMH. Although the The Jacksons started out with Motown, as a solo artist and with a new record label, of course he would find his own identity and evolve. Irrespective of genre, MJ is respected as a singer/songwriter, choreographer, producer and dancer - yes, the consummate artist. For anyone in any doubt of his input and relationship with Quincy, they need to reference what the good man himself says of Michael's songwriting and production input at the end of Off The Wall S.E. I think I'd rather take Quincy's opinion of MJ's work ethic and contribution over those of the repetitive Refuseniks' on this thread....seeing as he was actually there.

.... And quincey is on record as saying mj hated being black. Which adds fuel to the notion that he hadnt got vitiligo but bleached himself to become white.

Not a very good advert for racial barrier breaking is it. Lol..

Refuseniks? I prefer sceptics, because i dont buy the propagated image, the excuses and reasons that the money men throw out to protect their investment. Cynical moi? You bet. It stinks.

But at least you for once added a reasoned argument instead of resorting to personal muck slinging and i respect that.

Stevie wonder stuck to trying to be creative and infulencial as opposed to chasing popularity and the mightly dollar. Wonder was a musician, jackson was a product, and a vety successful one. But id be shocked if any serious musically knowlegable person seriously thinks jackson was a superior talent to wonder.... Wonder was original and blind.

Ps.... Blondie, you are spot on!

He actually did have vitiligo, as stated on the autopsy report

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/im...mj_autopsy.pdf Page 11

Did I say that? Actually look at the context of the post I quoted and what I said rather than jumping on any post that doesn't worship at the MJ alter

Boring!

He was multitalented end of.

Your not wrong escaped prison twice for sleeping with kids

you dont really understand the art of debate do you?

Stevie wonder seems to think he is pretty talented, he collaborated with him on multiple occasions and has nothing but good things to say, they both appeared on each others albums and wrote we are the world together.
Ditto Paul Mccartney.

Don't feed the troll.

.... got no problem with 'pretty talented' , got a problem with 'genius' , 'he changed the face of', and anything that suggests hes responsible and greater for things then what he really was.

however, whatever wonders opinion of mj is.... id still suggest that wonder was more talented, and his masterpiece (songs in the key of life) not only is regarded as one of the most influencial (which as you are aware, isnt the same as 'popular' which is what thriller is) but has non of the controversy , the uncertainty, the fog, that surrounds jackson.

of course the other charge levied at jackson is that he became popular BY courting and working with 'big names'. wonder, mccartney, jones, landis.... funny how he was working with these people when he was producing what most consider his 'best' material.

stevie wonder didnt.... james brown didnt, marvin gay didnt (on his best material), ray charles, sam cooke, etc etc etc all unambiguously were able to create their own masterpieces.

yawn.... still incapable of making an intelligent , informed, reasonable post that adds to the discussion. yet again resorts to name calling.

if you cant add anything to this reasonable conversation then please go away.

Thats the problem with uberfans of anyone. Unless you concur with them that their favourite the best in the whole world ever and no one else comes close, then you're called all sorts and accused of trolling or being a hater - it's playground stuff.

I know we've disagreed on music many times but I would never doubt your views are genuine. My musical taste is well documented on here over the years and hasn't wavered so to say either of us are trolls or question our authenticity just because we don't agree with others is beyond ridiculous

children isnt it... they just want slogans and dont want to or havnt the mental capacity to think, reason, debate.

we have disagreed and agreed, i can live with musical differences as long as they are based on reason, yours are, even when they are from a different perspective to mine. but hey, thats what lifes about. respect.

Haha! I have a lot I could write to you naysayers but as before, I don't see the point. Some people who dislike Michael (mostly regarding his personal life) are too blinded by misconceptions and tabloid nonsense and therefore choose to be stubborn instead of considering other peoples' opinions and actual facts. Respect.

then you havnt read the thread. if you had youd see that both me and blondie have both said we liked some of his material. but calling us 'naysayers' because we doubt the line given by the money men in support of their cash cow, is , well... to be expected by any open minded person.

but just suppose this.... just suppose that mj DID steer his own career all by himself, composed all his music, all by himself.... then so what?... he just joins the rest of the music world many and varied artists. it doesnt make him superior, nor better, in the real world.

the fans have got a 'loon' tag for a reason. and that is that they swallow the hype, and over (note OVER) credit his achievements. and i think thats what most music fans think because i dont know any serious music fan who doesnt recognise his commercial success.

What the fact he slept with kids, and you wonder why is he disliked. But then again his fans don't see any wrong doings in his actions, and don't like the fact that their chosen one is not universally liked and worshipped. All of that though has no bearing on his music, and I think most people are capable of separating the two.

I have noticed though that if you criticise an artist personally (especially MJ & even Madonna) the fans get very protective. In contrast you look at U2 fans as an example if you said the Bono was a d1ck, they would probably agree with you.

That's what I don't get. If someone criticises an act I love, I will debate with them but ultimately we all have different views and I don't expect to change anyones mind.

Also, to add to what Rob has said above, I liked a lot of Jackson material right up until Off The Wall. I really liked The Jacksons as a band and think they have produced some brilliant tunes. Show You The Way To Go is an absolute classic.
For me, Thriller was style over substance. When you take away the big money videos and production, the songs are nothing special - imo. From Bad onwards, I think MJ had started to lose his creativity and his musical direction. I find his material from the mid 80's onwards dull, uninspired and samey. I think he stopped moving on both as an artist and as a person. In many ways, the problems in his personal life can't be separated from his music as they started to go downhill at the same time and neither ever recovered - again all imo.

Style over substance... Spot on.

Tbh hes done what alot of other acts have done including the aforementioned stevie wonder.... Sold out. Ditched creativity in favour of popularity/ money. Lets face it, creative tracks rarely make alot of money.

In what way were Gaye and Wonder not mainstream? The whole Motown scene was mainstream. The Supremes were one of the most successful acts of the 60s. Before that, the likes of Sammy Davis Jr., Ray Charles and Ella Fitzgerald were major international stars. Claiming that Jackson was the firs mainstream black artist is total fantasy.

I do rate Stevie Wonder, and had any of those artists mentioned worked with big names the material would still be good. Songs in the key of life is a great album

Sorry, not being around in the 60's means that I didn't know how big Motown was

Elvis for me. Apart from the voice, the iconic dance moves, the right image/looks - he just had that unexplaible quality that seperates a good artist from a great one. The energy you get from his perfomances is a similar feeling to watching Al Pacino act.

Michael Jackson comes a close 2nd, possibly equal to Elvis. Another guy that just oozed talent.

The Beatles - Wrote their own songs and had some really nice ones, but very overhyped and just not in the same class as the other 2 names.

As for Oasis, I don't even know why they are even in the discussion tbh.