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'Classic' explanation for doctor's self-sacrifice.


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Old 29-04-2011, 23:10
SpookyDillows
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Somewhat geeky explanation for why the Doctor might chose to end his own life - but relies on some old Doctor Who mythology (which you may think has no bearing on current Who). Try this anyway...

We refer to the current incarnation as 'eleven' but in terms of regenerations he is actually 'twelve' since DT used up a regeneration to escape death at the hand of a dalek in series 4.

So when the current Doctor regenerates he will actually go from his twelfth to his thirteenth incarnation, the point at which, according to the Trial of a Timelord series, will see the creation of his evil self - the Valeyard. The Doctor sacrifices himself near the end of his twelfth incarnation to avoid creating the Valeyard.

As circumstantial evidence, consider the following. River seems nice at the moment but the Dalek feared her in The Big Bang. I can't believe that all she has done is to kill the Doctor in an astronaut suit in Utah. Who would put her in jail in the far future for that? There were no witnesses (that we know of) to the doctor's death. So maybe she's done many bad things. But she loves the Doctor? Does this make sense?

Could the Doctor that River is in love with actually be the Valeyard and she is helping the current Doctor so that he will eventually become that particular incarnation?

Dillows
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Old 29-04-2011, 23:31
sebbie3000
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I know I might be nit-picking (I think I'm using that phrase a little too much...), but wasn't the Valeyard from between his twelfth and final regeneration? The wording is important, as it doesn't suggest a final number. Now, I know people are going to argue he only has 13 regenerations, never mind what was said in The Sarah Jane Adventures (507 regenerations)... But that limit wasn't the original intention either - it was arbitrarily brought in, probably as a plan to be used for a major plot point in a later story (the name of which escapes me right now - please forgive as I've been up since 4am...).

So technically, the Valeyard could be from anywhere in between those 495 regenerations...
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:16
grizzlyvamp
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From what my dad has said only the plot from the TV series actually counts as happening - so the books and stuff can contradict the TV series but the TV series can't contradict itself. Now assuming that this still holds true as did in the old series and that the events of the old series still occured (as would be the natural assumption) that means that nothing that happened in the old series can be contradicted in the new series. So by extension the Doctor still has just 13 regenerations. I hope that the passing comment isn't going to be the get out clause as that would just be crass. I'm hoping that there will be a better resolution giving the Doctor more regenerations.
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:20
alwatson
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I dont think they'll bring back the Valeyard. It is a (supposedly) kids show, and its unlikey many kids from nowadays have watched the old valeyard episodes to know him.
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:30
johnnysaucepn
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Even if you discount the books and audio plays (and don't let certain members here hear you say that!) there's virtually nothing in the Doctor Who mythos that hasn't been contradicted by something else. Seriously. It's been going on for so long, and with so many writers all with their own ideas and throwaway lines that were never meant to be anything but, it would be impossible for it not to contradict itself.
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:35
Dr Gargunza
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It will be Timey Wimey and the Valeyard will not feature. It'll be like that cliffhanger in King of the Rocket Men when the van goes over the cliff but at the beginning of the next episode you see him fly out at the last minute.
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:38
CheeseyDude1337
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This is actually a pretty clever idea.

Maybe he sees the Valeyard at some point, which prompts him to do this?
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:48
sebbie3000
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From what my dad has said only the plot from the TV series actually counts as happening - so the books and stuff can contradict the TV series but the TV series can't contradict itself. Now assuming that this still holds true as did in the old series and that the events of the old series still occured (as would be the natural assumption) that means that nothing that happened in the old series can be contradicted in the new series. So by extension the Doctor still has just 13 regenerations. I hope that the passing comment isn't going to be the get out clause as that would just be crass. I'm hoping that there will be a better resolution giving the Doctor more regenerations.
In that case, he has more than 13 regenerations, but an unspecified amount (as that came before the 13 regeneration limit). In fact, scrap that - the original plan of The Doctor being a time travelling historian, who isn't from Gallifrey and isn't a Time Lord still stands...

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but that is ridiculous. Doctor Who is carrying on in the same vain it always has - reinvention and change. The current form of televisual Doctor Who takes precedence, as it is exactly the same product that Classic Who was - they are the same thing! The same show, just in different generations. Older fans just don't want 'their Doctor Who ' (by which I mean the show, nit the individual Doctors) to change - which is againsst the ethos of Doctor Who.

All of the established and well beloved' immutable' laws and rules of Doctor Who came about as fixes for actors being ill, or the need of a backstory to invent new characters as bad guys, or the need of getting rid of timely exposition from a 25 minute-per-show format.



I know I sound ranty - but it really is ridiculous to claim things have to stay the same as before, when if that were the case then new things have to be introduced. Why are RTD and SM, and any future showrunners not allowed to add to the Doctor Who mythos? Because some older fans don't want them to?
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Old 30-04-2011, 00:57
Corwin
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The Valeyard is the Dream Lord made flesh by the Time Lords.

Simples.
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Old 30-04-2011, 08:00
inspector drake
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I dont think they'll bring back the Valeyard. It is a (supposedly) kids show, and its unlikey many kids from nowadays have watched the old valeyard episodes to know him.
None of them had watched the Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans and the Master?
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Old 30-04-2011, 08:50
allen_who
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Personally I don't look at classic who for explanations, I more look at the style of Moffats writing. He seems to love writing stories that end in a way that takes you right back to the beginning... He's always done it...

I think tonights episode simply ends with the Doc following an alternative future and he doesn't die at all... He's messing with his own timeline for my money
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Old 30-04-2011, 09:01
grizzlyvamp
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In that case, he has more than 13 regenerations, but an unspecified amount (as that came before the 13 regeneration limit). In fact, scrap that - the original plan of The Doctor being a time travelling historian, who isn't from Gallifrey and isn't a Time Lord still stands...

I don't want to sound disrespectful, but that is ridiculous. Doctor Who is carrying on in the same vain it always has - reinvention and change. The current form of televisual Doctor Who takes precedence, as it is exactly the same product that Classic Who was - they are the same thing! The same show, just in different generations. Older fans just don't want 'their Doctor Who ' (by which I mean the show, nit the individual Doctors) to change - which is againsst the ethos of Doctor Who.

All of the established and well beloved' immutable' laws and rules of Doctor Who came about as fixes for actors being ill, or the need of a backstory to invent new characters as bad guys, or the need of getting rid of timely exposition from a 25 minute-per-show format.



I know I sound ranty - but it really is ridiculous to claim things have to stay the same as before, when if that were the case then new things have to be introduced. Why are RTD and SM, and any future showrunners not allowed to add to the Doctor Who mythos? Because some older fans don't want them to?
Ok, I have to say that's fair enough but I was meaning if (for example) it is established in 1 episode that you can't cross your own timeline with out risking severe consequences then you have to keep that in. I am merely arguing that the 13 regenerations is another thing that should be of those things. But on a similar note they tried to have the Doctor as just half-Time Lord in the 8th Doctor's one televised adventure which luckily has been ignored.
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Old 30-04-2011, 09:05
allen_who
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I'm always amased that no one mentions this with the Doc's regenerations, but if we are going to point to classic who, then 'The Brain or Morbius' clearly implies that what we know as the the first Doc (William Hartnell) wasn't the first at all... About four of five faces are shown to be prior Doctors to W.H Doc
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Old 30-04-2011, 09:21
dalekaddison
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From what my dad has said only the plot from the TV series actually counts as happening - so the books and stuff can contradict the TV series but the TV series can't contradict itself. Now assuming that this still holds true as did in the old series and that the events of the old series still occured (as would be the natural assumption) that means that nothing that happened in the old series can be contradicted in the new series. So by extension the Doctor still has just 13 regenerations. I hope that the passing comment isn't going to be the get out clause as that would just be crass. I'm hoping that there will be a better resolution giving the Doctor more regenerations.
But by that theory, the Doctor has one heart and built the TARDIS.

Maybe he got more regenerations during the Time war? Time lords could give extra regenerations as seen in the Five Doctors, they could have given LOADS to the Doctor. Maybe.
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Old 30-04-2011, 10:40
mdovey
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I'm always amased that no one mentions this with the Doc's regenerations, but if we are going to point to classic who, then 'The Brain or Morbius' clearly implies that what we know as the the first Doc (William Hartnell) wasn't the first at all... About four of five faces are shown to be prior Doctors to W.H Doc
Ah, but the difference is that the twelve regenerations is neither just implied nor a throw away line in the classic series.

It isn't ever stated that the additional faces are prior incarnations of the Doctor or whether they are in fact Morbius (although it is implied). Whose faces these are has little bearing on the plot, and is never referred to again - beyond a piece of trivia that this was an attempt at the time (alongside the regeneration limit introduced in the Deadly Assassin) to hint that Tom Baker's Doctor was already on his last regeneration (an idea which never got further traction).

The 507 regenerations in the SJA is a throw-away line - the Doctor could be saying something at random in a "none of your business/we've got better things to worry about" type way.

However, the 12 regeneration limit is a major plot point in the Deadly Assassin as the Master goes to extreme lengths to break this limit. A major plot point in Mawdryn Undead is that the Doctor only has eight incarnations left. I'm pretty sure that the 12 regeneration limit is also referred to in Keeper of Traken and the Five Doctors (although these may only have dialogue that the Master and Borusa have no more regenerations without given explicit numbers). So it is more substantial should a future episode contradict this.

Not that the classic series lacked substantial contradictions (multiple causes of the destruction of Atlantis for example).

Matthew
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Old 30-04-2011, 10:52
sebbie3000
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I'm always amased that no one mentions this with the Doc's regenerations, but if we are going to point to classic who, then 'The Brain or Morbius' clearly implies that what we know as the the first Doc (William Hartnell) wasn't the first at all... About four of five faces are shown to be prior Doctors to W.H Doc
I think it's contentious - I listened to the audio version of it just the other week, and it is merely a suggestion that it's the Doctor, but there is a heavier implication that it's the other Timelord... Also, I think it has been stated as fact that Hartnell was indeed the first Doctor, but I'm not sure where...

But by that theory, the Doctor has one heart and built the TARDIS.

Maybe he got more regenerations during the Time war? Time lords could give extra regenerations as seen in the Five Doctors, they could have given LOADS to the Doctor. Maybe.
And weren't the 13 regenerations an imposed limit? That's what it seems to have been so far... So with them gone, there's no more Timelords left to police it! It might be that he can just carry on regenerating, and not necessarily know he will go on. It might be that he's pleasantly surprised when he doesn't die properly after that...
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Old 30-04-2011, 11:50
Smerph
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Somewhat geeky explanation for why the Doctor might chose to end his own life
Um....he tried to regenerate???
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Old 30-04-2011, 12:39
Face Of Jack
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According to the Five Doctors - William Hartnell was THE ORIGINAL Doctor. Well, actually it was Richard Hurndall that said the lines as Doctor 1. Plus he said something like "Good heavens so there are five of me now".
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Old 30-04-2011, 12:43
SpookyDillows
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Um....he tried to regenerate???
Only so he could be killed again. I assume that this was his intention. I suppose it could be possible that he'd arranged with the astronaut to shoot him so he could regenerate once but was double crossed - shot and killed the second time.

But that doesn't seem very plausible somehow.

So I can only conclude that, even though he started regenerating, his sole intention was to die.
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Old 30-04-2011, 12:53
sebbie3000
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Only so he could be killed again. I assume that this was his intention. I suppose it could be possible that he'd arranged with the astronaut to shoot him so he could regenerate once but was double crossed - shot and killed the second time.

But that doesn't seem very plausible somehow.

So I can only conclude that, even though he started regenerating, his sole intention was to die.
Maybe he gave up his regeneration capability? Perhaps the suit (that is clearly not a normal suit - the little girl was in it at the end of the show at least, and yet it still walked normally) was capable of absorbing the regeneration energy, which leads to the spoiler below (don't click if you don't want to be spoiled)

Spoiler
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Old 30-04-2011, 13:35
englishmuffin
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I think, I think we should only be taking facts into account that have been referred to since newwho began. I know it's a sort of kick in the shin to the old series, but 12/13 regenerations were mentioned in old who, whereas I'm sure ten had a throwaway comment saying he had hundreds
Maybe the writers of old who didn't think the series would still be this popular so far on, or wanted to give future writers a way to wind up the entire series if they needed.

But taking everything from old and new into account, doctor who is full to the brim with contradictions, the doctor is half human, but is a full timelord, has one heart, oh but has two hearts, built the tardis himself, but borrowed it from someone, then there's the whole regeneration malarky, and I'm sure there are plently more
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