I totally agree - TV should be a bit challenging, and I like something that makes you think, and does not tie everything up within the first episode (or even in the first 10 mins). It should leave questions unanswered until the final few episodes, and even into future series. That's what keeps people coming back (as long as they don't want to be spoon-fed every single plot element).

Yes, the programme is changing (it has to in order to keep its freshness). It should no longer be seen as a children's programme (not that it ever was of course), but as a programme that can be viewed on a number of levels, with an increasing emphasis on better long-term plotlines.

I am sure that however many casual viewers are lost, it will gain just as many (if not more) by way of its new-found freshness. And I have yet to see any compelling evidence that children will be switching away in drove due to the plot complexities or the heavier elements to the stories.

One of the words that has cropped up in various threads is 'Lost' now for me that sets alarm bells ringing. The success of Doctor Who since its relaunch is that it WASN'T like every other sci-fi show, it didn't look like your average US sci-fi show, it didn't bog itself down with continuing story arcs

It is clear this show is appealing to the internet sci-fi fandom but my concern is that it overtime this could begin to push away the causal viewer.


Whilst I personally enjoyed most of the opening two episodes, even though they were, for me, extremely sterile and flat in characterisation. I did get the overall feel that the show was quickly disappearing up its own backside in a self referential fan boy mess.

As much as I liked Matt Smith in series 5 I personally feel he hasn't upped his game, he still isn't pulling off the big 'I am the Doctor' type scenes, and more than often appears to be doing a strange Jack Sparrow impression, the arm movements are already grating. But even stranger is that when the big 'I am The Doctor' scenes appear, for example the whole moon landing/TV/subliminal message, it all seems to be still written for very Tennant esque delivery. I have yet to see Matt Smith deliver the big scenes and hold the screen. IMHO

All this overlapping plots is fine for a two parter, but Christ it has become dull as hell, just tell a story. The whole 'who is River Song' arc has become tedious beyond belief, does the show really need this running over 3 series now.:yawn:

You've endured tedium for 3 series?
I don't think I'd do that, just to complain at the end of it.

Where did I say that?? I said that the River Song arc has become tedious. Could you point me to where I said that the last 3 series themselves have been tedious.

Should now be on later in the evening IMO.

Story line was very dark and scary for children to be watching at 6pm.

Not only that but complicated aswell.

No.
But then I didn't that say you said that. Can you point... etc etc
Oooh we can turn this into a Moff script all to ourselves.Or alternatively, not bother.

Kids love being scared and they love comparing notes on Monday morning. Then they go back for more on the Saturday.

Well lets not bother, you obviously jumped up and down with out actually reading what I said.

I jump up and down alot.

I think it's lazy and badly edited writing. It's overly complicated, convoluted and all these nods to future episodes and 'foreshadowing' is tiring.

You shouldn't have to work out an episode; it should just flow naturally to its conclusion. Keeping you guessing is cool, but Moffatt's episodes are just overly bogged down.

I found last night's to be interminable. Some of it was just pointless and the episode needed a damn good edit from a professional.

In short yes, yes it does!

If it were all nicely wrapped up in one season, that would be boring beyond belief! Squashing a story that is about the development of a lifelong relationship (we know that River met the Doc when she was young) into just a few episodes would make it unbelievable and ridiculous.

I really do struggle to understand why people can't embrace the brilliance of threads that span across many seasons, allowing the viewer to enjoy something other than a scenario akin to:

"Bad stuff happens. The Doc fixes it. Everyone lives happily ever after"

It's those sorts of scenarios repeated ad infinitum that become 'tedious beyond belief'!

Arghhhhh!

Stop patronising the children!

(Sorry. I'm just getting very stressed at all the "it's too scary / complicated for children" talk. The minds of most children love this sort of thing. I certainly know mine did as a kid - I'd loved being scared, mystified and made to question things as a kid!)

Quite. The 'nanny brigade' get on my wick too.

The other day I had a discussion with 28 6/7 yr olds spanning the discovery of the element Phosphorus and the subsequent grimly ironic events of World War 2. We then covered the different forms of Carbon, including a chat about the tetrahedral form of the element in diamond as opposed to the layered structure of graphite. This led us into a discussion on fossils, geological timescale and the creation of the earth.
Did the kids understand every word of it? Absolutely not. Does that matter? Absolutely not.

Then at the end I started to whisper facts about Hydrogen before murmuring that if you had a balloon filled with Hydrogen and you introduced it to a lit match there'd be an enormous BANG! (Complete with shout!)

Kids jumped a mile. Fear and learning - hand in hand.

Good grief people are impatient these days... Doctor Who is simply built on mystery. The clue is in the title of the flipping program! A mysterious old man traveling through time and space in a Police Box. It was many years before anyone knew anything else at all about the Doctor and I assume that people were OK with that? and some 48 years later and still people don't even know the main characters name (and probably never will).

Why not throw in a few more mysteries into the pot as well, which we know will get answered? Has TV really become that dumbed down that we need to be spoon fed answers every five minutes?

Sadly, I am beginning to think so. Dumbed down to such an extent that it appears that some simply find it too difficult, time-consuming or troublesome to think about things and savour any slow-burning stories.

I'd be willing to wager that some younger kids ad no clue what was happening in the RTD era if the don't know what is happening in these series.

You missed "Nixon is/was the "good guy"

And yes, the x alloy prison seemed a bit superfluous to me, nicely executed but quite pointless (it's not like they don't have the TARDIS to get out anyway).

I always loved the Doctor being strictly anti-weaponry, so yes, while I love River and her gung-ho attitude, I am a bit disappointed in the Doctor's attitude there ...

Sorry, but Lost doesn't combat the argument that DW plots are becoming more unfathomable - it reinforces it.

In the UK, Lost was broadcast on minority channels to a loyal cult following. DW has a loyal cult following - but they're a tiny, if vociferous, part of its audience. It's broadcast on a mainstream channel which is intended to appeal to as many people as possible. So SM using the likes of Lost as a template would be pretty daft.

Lost haemorrhaged viewers who grew tired of waiting for answers that only came laden with more questions. Just like The X Files did years before. DW became ever more obsessed with continuity minutae and laden with plots full of holes in the 80s - it doesn't need to go that way again, not least because that resulted in the show being axed.

It's not really surprising that some reviewers are struggling to understand what is going on. Yes, some of their questions may well have been answered on screen but, given that the plot just about creaked with exposition that didn't just relate to this two-parter but also the whole of Series 5 (and still failed to fully pay off what was set up there), it's no wonder they missed some details.

RTD's story arcs may well have been simpler - but they clearly engaged viewers. The overnights for last night show a drop - which can't be good. I'm sure there will be plenty of excuses made - poor scheduling, good weather, bank holiday weekend again - and while some of those may be valid, the very presence of threads like this one speaks volumes.

And, before anyone starts pointing the finger, I'm not advocating the return of RTD. I would, however, advocate the return of Julie Gardner, who clearly had a stronger handle on the show than Piers Wenger and Beth Willis do; she was, after all, executive producer on DW when SM delivered his finest work ...

I wasn't using LOST as a way to say that if you think Doctor Who is complicated try watching LOST, a poster was saying this Series finishes in Autumn how the hell are we going to remember everything and I was saying LOST was constantly giving out questions when it was airing and everyone managed to keep up with it throughout its 6 (yeah I said the wrong amount earlier) Series as they kept bringing these questions back up.

A lot of people here are worried they wont be able to remember everything when Moffat is clearly going to bring up all the necassery information again throughout its run so people don't get lost. And I still disagree that these so called "complicated" plots will lose the casual viewer.

I don't understand what was so difficult with the opening two episodes.

The Silence controlled the humans by using subliminal hypnotic suggestions, either to forget they had been seen or to make humans do their bidding.

The Doctor used that ability to plant the subliminal hypnotic suggestion that we kill the Silence on sight, and then we would forget we did it. He used the fact that billions watched the moon landing live and I expect that the ability will be innately passed on down the generations just like our forgetting them must have been.

As for the questions about River Song, Amy's baby and the child; how difficult is it to tell your children, if they ask, they will be answered in future episodes. When they read a book do they become confused if all the answers aren't in Chapter One. As people have pointed out children are more intelligent than we give them credit for. I expect they can either work out the answers are coming later or accept it when they are told they are.

I prefer a more cerebral Doctor Who ahead of the companion falls in love with the Doctor-a-thon.

I think you are forgetting that although there were hunderds of sub-plots there really was only 1 storyline. Dr Who is completely different. Everyweek we have a different storyline.. Next week Pirates which will be more than likely very light and less "confusing".. Will probably get a little reference to the overall story arc. We already know episodes have been swapped to make the first half more balanced....

So I am not getting what the problem is? So some people hated it...?? But stay tuned and you will get an episode you will love as it is made to please everyone most of the time not a few people all of the time... Unless you are like me who is pleased 99% of the time...

Channel 4 and Sky One aren't minority channels.

Lost was getting over 1 million an episode on Sky One.

I had no idea what was going on in some of the early 190s stories like Castrovalva when I was a kid, still don't. But it never made me give up on DW.

As For the series 6 opener, I'd say it was more complicated than confusing. If I was confused in any way, I expected to be. This is an on-going mystery and we are being drip-fed. We are obviously left in the dark about many things.

However, there are a couple of things that didn't seem to be explained clearly, and I doubt will be addressed later on.

1) When and how did Amy remember about the picture of The Silent on her phone?
2) What happened to Rory at the end of episode one? We assumed The Silents got him, but was he simple transported to the dam?

But the point I was making was that 'everyone' didn't keep up with Lost throughout its run, both in the US and in the UK: many viewers abandoned ship. That may wok for a cult show on a minority channel - but DW can't afford to operate in the same way.

How do you know SM is "going to bring up all the necassery information again throughout its run so people don't get lost"? Have you seen previews? Because given that there are still unanswered questions from Series 5 hanging in the air, there is going to be a helluva lot of exposition clagging up future episodes ...