The familiarity of Doctor Who pirate plot concepts to a viewer who has not seen Pirates of the Caribbean weakens (in fact, blows out of the water, he he) the claim that the former was lifted from the latter.

My irony-meter just went "ding".

Hello


A point was made that the treasure was a curse, all other portals was summarily dismissed after casual mention


No one died in the Pirate franchise but there was a motley crew of undead.

And take a thematic hop, skip and jump and one can reinterpret 'undead' as comatose.

Not dead- not alive.

But then, awoken enough to pilot a ship that wil never take them to shore again.

A theme explored in the last Pirate film.

it's like they placed tracing paper on the script of the Pirate franchise and drew round it.

The basic shape is there- the regurgitated themes.

The conceptual shading- the bias. It all leans towards Disney


Avery was cursed with a love of treasure- to the point of putting his son last, as well as the commission- wife.

A curse was the end point for the show- men drifting aimlessly amongst the stars.

Shepherding the malevolent agent away from humanity.

The Pirate franchise explored a similar theme when one of the characters gave up their living-life in order to save another.

And became an undead shipmate.

You're handicapped if you expect a literal examination to afford you some answers.

William Shakespeare nicked most of his ideas from others.

Implying that Pirates of The Caribbean was the first to have a storyline about Pirates..
In all seriousness though, while the episode yesterday did borrow some concepts from PoTC, I think the sci-fi nature of Doctor Who did well to cover up some of the more 'cliché' aspects.

Well, there was Davy Jones, for starters. Also Governer Swann... And loads of people were executed at the start of At Worlds End.

I love the Pirates films, cant wait for On Stranger Tides, but I can't agree that Doctor Who ripped it off. There may have been affectionate nods to it, there was bound to be when POTC has such a massive fanbase, but most of the pirate themes are well established. Even the Doctor Who novel The Ressurection Casket had a 'black shadow' which was a play on the black spot.

You could equally argue that a medical hologram is a complete rip off of Star Trek Voyager

I'm happy with the obvious 'influences' for the episode for what was largely a fun little romp. The only thing that really gets my goat is the title. It's just too much of a rip-off for me. 'The Black Spot' would have been much more intriguing and far less cheesy imho.

Oh yes! That quote was from Milton's answer to me. Wish I'd said that! Was going to let it lie, but I've just done a Miltion rictus

Earlier the amount of theft was apparantly on the nose obvious. But now it seems it is the thematic similarity (and "conceptual shading" and "bias") that is of note. So, just rather banal observation then.

I'd've said a more accurate description is that they're timeless, as opposed to time-travelling. If the underworld doesn't contain time, as you claim, then they can't be travelling through time, can they?


I don't think it was meant as a 'rip-off', more an affectionate nod to the franchise, which so many people associate with pirates these days.

I think it's a little sad that people seem to be taking this so seriously. All pirate stories are going to have similar themes as they stem from one mythology, just the same as vampire stories are likely to, as it were, stem from the same vein. As members of this forum before me have said, it was just meant as a fun romp of an episode to contrast against the seriousness of the first two episodes.

Alas kitthekat, some of the comments on here suggesting it's a rip off are just trying to bash Dr Who, rather than being proper critiques.

You're probably right, The Neutron Flo, but I saw the thread was unlocked once again and couldn't bear to see the troll go hungry.

Trolls are about the only monster we haven't seen the Dr fight

I'm sure it wasn't meant as a rip-off, but after aping the story so much (which I didn't mind) the title grated for me. A bit of a step too far, slightly. 'Affectionate nod to the franchise' was more than already covered by so many parts of the plot imo.

Hello

As other have said, The Black Spot used more plot points from established pirate fiction:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvbLr7c3IRc than that established in the POTC franchise. Of course there will be comparisons, its inevitable when it comes to pirates - the amount POTC borrowed from RLS ect.

Hello


I thought we were talking about the central characters- not peripheral types and their ilk

We can deconstruct the Who and the Pirates and rearrange their constitute parts- and pretend in our folly that all are interchangeable- but they aren't, obviously.

But some parts are- and not the typical parts supported by the pirate mythology- but more bespoke bits.


Well, that's a singular truth- not one nestled within a phalanx of other truths.

Thus, harder to support.

You were confused.


Are you writing this yourself or do you have some sort of 'meaningless, pretentious waffle generator' to do it for you ?


Well, you've got that exactly the wrong way round.

Hello

I'm sure the 'little lady' can speak for herself

ok then david cameron

Hello


I could never do that- in all seriousness- who could?

Many a pirate film has been scuppered by the ill winds of faddish distain- or the contra currents of fiscal irresponsibility


Thanks for that acknowledgement

Only fanboyism could prevent anyone from seeing it.

LOL! the defensiveness on this thread is hlarious. Some of you are far too close to this to have any objecitivity!

Of course it borrows heavily from POTC, I dont think even the production team would argue with that. Even in Confidential Karen Gillan referred to the script describing her appearance as 'Pirate Queen', and that section was all very Keira Knightly. The pirate elements are all traditional, but some of the set pieces (like the above) were quite POTC.

And of course POTC regurgitates every other piece of pirate film and literature. The newest film in the franchise is directly lifted from the Tim Powers novel 'On Stranger Tides' that of course predates the movies but is incredibly similar to them So at least their acknowledging that particular lift now.

Pirate legend is as familar as fairy tales to most of us, from Peter pan to Treasure Island. But as POTC is recent and very familiar to audiences, keeping things close to that is a conveniant shorthand to get to audiences in a short space of time. Lazy? yes a bit. But pretty inevitable.

You have basically defeated your own argument.

People are not defending DW from the charge of using a whole heap of pirate tropes and memes. That they do that is perfectly obvious.

What people are objecting too is the frankly deluded assertion that the episode is based on one particular film when a) the parallels are not that close and b) that film itself is a mishmash of tropes and memes from dozens of works of prior art.

Where the manic fanboyism shows its face it when someone is so obsessed with a particular instance (POC) of a genre (pirate stiries) that they dogmatically insist that anything that follows it must be a rip off on the most sender of associations. (Oh, it's set on a ship and it's got black in the title. )

When the DW black spot is an absolutely direct lift from Treasure Island it is plain stupid to try and claim that it is a rip off of another work that is itself derivative and with which the DW black spot and a link that is tenuous to the point of non-existence.

Well, that does seem fairly reasonable. "A bit lazy" perhaps (with the emphasis on "bit" - if you are going to try and do a "scifi explanation for the Siren" then it wasn't a bad stab.) I think it is mostly about whether POTC now totally owns the concepts of curses, cursed treasure, pirates doomed to sail their (space)ship, father overcoming bauble obsession to do right by family. To such an extent that any pirate story using similar concepts is accused of smash and grab theiving from Disney.

Hmm..defensive? Us lot? Fetch me my duelling pistols!

The story would have still worked as a pirate 'film' on its own even if it was created long before the PotC films. Apart of the name of the episode, I see no direct lifting.

Hello

I like absolutes as much as the next lapsed Catholic but decrying the use of one whilst hastily preparing your own- is a tad hypocritical:

Doctor Who: Curse of the Black Spot

Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl

It's not an affectionate nod- it's a full body sway towards homage- lifting many of the concepts along the way.

That's fine- call it lazy- a stop gap filler between two epic arcs.

These things happen- a collision of happenstance- a box set and a whiskey bottle create plagiaristic mayhem.

Or, like the sensible scribe of this feckless voyage into the minds of far greater men- thoughtcriminal - a balance ought to be struck.

Let's put away the absolutes that weigh anchor upon our leaden thoughts- and re-approach the title of the program once more.

Doctor Who (it's a little bit of sci-fi )

And the curse of (It's a little bit of modern)

The black spot (it's a little bit of the old)

A perfect marriage: Something old, something new, something borrowed, something WHO

This is getting old now.

Why do people continue to feed the troll? When it gets to page 3 you know they're only doing it for laughs.